Wow! Are these Christians talking to each other!?Originally posted by Claudia_T:
SMM
Okay you win buddy, you can not keep the Sabbath and we wont insinuate that you are a Sabbath Breaker... but you can keep outright calling us Legalists just because we think that if God says we should keep His Commandments, we ought to actually do what He says and keep them... and we will always be happy with these rules of the game you have concocted for us to play by and never complain.
-
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Sabbath Revisited
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
Quoting mman,
"First of all, the 10 commandments were not given to me (us). They were given to the Hebrews alone (Deut. 5:1-5)."
Right, the TC weren't given to you or 'us' - not even "to" 'man' or 'mankind'. Mk.2:27 doesn't say that! It says "for" man/mankind/THIS Son of Man - FOR Christ's sake, in fact. God, "made", i.e., 'intended' the Sabbath for His sake and for the sake of His People.
"FOR", His People: "Therefore there remaineth valid for the People of GOD (God always the One and Same - and therefore always the one and same People).
"The Hebrews" - not mentioned there at all (in Dt5), but Israel - 'Conman'/'Cheater' - I and you, mman, I and you!
Now read Dt 5 and again say it wasn't commanded of you - especially verse 1!
Verse 2: Now didn't God make a covenant with you and me on the Mount Horeb? What did He do then in and through His Christ there? About 2000 years ago that was. He made a New Covenant with us His People there and then.
Verse 3: "HE MADE NOT THIS COVENANT WITH OUR FATHERS, BUT WITH US".
God speak to me and you, mman, through His Word here. You hear Him? He speaks to you "FACE TO FACE" (verse 4) - that's very intimately and personally, because He is the LIVING LORD GOD, "yesterday, today and forever the same". He is Jesus Christ.
Are you afraid "because of fire" - hell - Love drives out fear Paul promised. And love is the only motivation for the Sabbath Day. Love made Christ give Himself; by the power of His love He coquered death - to save and bring into His Rest, His People --- "Therefore, today, if you hear His voice. do not harden your heart".
"First of all, the 10 commandments were not given to me (us). They were given to the Hebrews alone (Deut. 5:1-5)."
Right, the TC weren't given to you or 'us' - not even "to" 'man' or 'mankind'. Mk.2:27 doesn't say that! It says "for" man/mankind/THIS Son of Man - FOR Christ's sake, in fact. God, "made", i.e., 'intended' the Sabbath for His sake and for the sake of His People.
"FOR", His People: "Therefore there remaineth valid for the People of GOD (God always the One and Same - and therefore always the one and same People).
"The Hebrews" - not mentioned there at all (in Dt5), but Israel - 'Conman'/'Cheater' - I and you, mman, I and you!
Now read Dt 5 and again say it wasn't commanded of you - especially verse 1!
Verse 2: Now didn't God make a covenant with you and me on the Mount Horeb? What did He do then in and through His Christ there? About 2000 years ago that was. He made a New Covenant with us His People there and then.
Verse 3: "HE MADE NOT THIS COVENANT WITH OUR FATHERS, BUT WITH US".
God speak to me and you, mman, through His Word here. You hear Him? He speaks to you "FACE TO FACE" (verse 4) - that's very intimately and personally, because He is the LIVING LORD GOD, "yesterday, today and forever the same". He is Jesus Christ.
Are you afraid "because of fire" - hell - Love drives out fear Paul promised. And love is the only motivation for the Sabbath Day. Love made Christ give Himself; by the power of His love He coquered death - to save and bring into His Rest, His People --- "Therefore, today, if you hear His voice. do not harden your heart".
"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.
Maybe there is a language barrier, I don't know, but what are you talking about????
The 10 commandments were given to man.
Let's read it.
Deut 5:1 "And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. 4The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, 5while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.'"
Therefore He made it with those who were alive then(several thousand years ago), who God brought out of the land of Egypt.
Just how old are you? No, it was for them and their children (Deut 6).
Luther says nothing pro-Seventh Day Sabbath whatsoever. Luther resisted the Sabbath in any form, but more the Seventh Day Sabbath - To use Luther as were he a defender of the Seventh Day Sabbath is FALSE in every respect and only betrays the user of such tricks dishonest and ignorant.
Maybe there is a language barrier, I don't know, but what are you talking about????
The 10 commandments were given to man.
Let's read it.
Deut 5:1 "And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. 2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. 4The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, 5while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.'"
Therefore He made it with those who were alive then(several thousand years ago), who God brought out of the land of Egypt.
Just how old are you? No, it was for them and their children (Deut 6). </font>[/QUOTE]You make of God's Living Word a DEAD letter; but let me warn you, mman, that dead LETTER, still KILLETH!
Moses summons ALL Israel - if we read him today, he summons US, or we are not part of ALL Israel. Now read whom Paul says are ALL Israel - it includes "spritual" Israel, FIRSTLY. Or you don't know your verses.
It's no "language barrier" -- it's a WILL-barrier. You don't WANT to hear God speaking to YOU, here, in Dt.5 -- "I (Moses) stood between the LORD and you" --- as you read, mman, whether you admit or not. Through Moses (the Law) God tells you, "I have brought you forth out of the hoese of slavery " - slavery to sin - "therefore ..." He "GAVE" - God's gift of grace - "YOU, the Sabbath".
So, you're killing goats in South Africa or is that part of the law dead????
Are you keeping the feast days, the offerings, and all the various ordinances?
You have a tabernacle with the various objects made according to the pattern shown to Moses on the Mountain?
Read Galatians. If you seek to be keep the law, you are severed from Christ (Gal 5:4). The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, but after that we are no longer under a tutor, i.e., the law (Gal 3).
lets go to --->Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
what's this talking about?
lets now go to hebres 9:10 " Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
the law of the commandments contained in ordinances. what kind of ordinances? carnal ordinances. certain modifications made by man to look like the law of the commandments - the law of the commandments was held in man-made tradition. that of which Jesus came to get rid of - having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
----------
let me set up an anecdote:
you are in school - the school master is helping you towards graduation. when you graduate - do you kill the school master? no. you thank the school master. you are grateful to the school master for helping you to graduation.
how does that work in the spiritual sense?
the school master is the law which brought us to graduation (being Christ). do we then ignore the law? do we then shoot the law? do we then cut down the law that had previously helped us? no. we embrace it further more after our graduation. and teaching others that the school master is what will help in the process of graduation.
what's this talking about?
lets now go to hebres 9:10 " Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
the law of the commandments contained in ordinances. what kind of ordinances? carnal ordinances. certain modifications made by man to look like the law of the commandments - the law of the commandments was held in man-made tradition. that of which Jesus came to get rid of - having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
----------
let me set up an anecdote:
you are in school - the school master is helping you towards graduation. when you graduate - do you kill the school master? no. you thank the school master. you are grateful to the school master for helping you to graduation.
how does that work in the spiritual sense?
the school master is the law which brought us to graduation (being Christ). do we then ignore the law? do we then shoot the law? do we then cut down the law that had previously helped us? no. we embrace it further more after our graduation. and teaching others that the school master is what will help in the process of graduation.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The School master leads the lost to Christ - but also "the MIRROR" of James continues to direct the saints.
For "the Law is written on the heart" for the saints - that means they "agree with it" Romans 7 - they do not seek to "abolish what is in their heart"
In Christ,
Bob
For "the Law is written on the heart" for the saints - that means they "agree with it" Romans 7 - they do not seek to "abolish what is in their heart"
In Christ,
Bob
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Post #1
Ohev Yisrael Yesterday, 08:52 PM Post #64
Hmmm... Don't know exactly where to start on this, so I will just throw some stuff out and see where it lands, LOL
To properly understand the Sabbath, you have to really understand why God sanctified the Seventh Day.
The Torah is really what we call "Tavinot" in Hebrew. Tavinot means "pictures." We as humans think in pictures. If I say "dog." Which dog do you think about? You may think about your dog, or the neighbor's dog. If I say "German Shepherd," we are thinking of the same dog. God utilizes this method in the Torah. The Torah is a set of pictures of our Messiah, Yeshua. They all point to Him. Paul writes the following:
Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah.
(Colossians 2:16-17)
Two things here. The church at Colosse was under attack by the Gnostics who believed the material world to be evil. Therefore the Sabbaths, Festivals and other such commandments were unacceptable since the Festivals and the Sabbath sanctify matter, time and space. The Festivals are unique because they take even the most mundane activities like eating and cause them to be act of worship to the Lord (not that such cannot be done all of the time, but the Festivals are uniquely constructed unto this purpose).
So contrary to how many people read these verses, Paul was not warning to the Colossians about Jews who would judge them for not keeping the Festivals, he was warning the Colossians about the Gnostics who judged those who did keep the Festivals. It is historical fact that many Gentile believers kept the Sabbath and the Passover until the 4th century. Much of what we know today in institutional Christianity came about after the 4th century.
My second point is that v. 17 tells us that the Festivals were shadow (sketch in Greek) of what was to come. He is the substance or the "main idea" of the Sabbath. He is Sabbath made flesh.
So, what pictures do we see in the Sabbath?
1. Rest. After God created man, He sanctified the Seventh day and Adam entered into God's rest. Likewise Yeshua says:
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:28-30)
He offers us sweet rest.
Rest from guilt
Rest from shame
Rest from condemnation
Rest from fear
Rest from groaning under the weight of our wretchedness
Rest from vile affections
Rest from trying to work ourselves into God's favor
God worked for six days before man could enter His rest. Jesus was on the cross for six hours before we could enter into the rest of salvation. This is no coincidence. Jesus said that His life was His to give, and no man could take it from Him. Even on the cross, Jesus was in complete control of everything. He died when He wanted to die, and not a second too soon, and not a second too late. He died in exactly six hours between the evenings when the Passover lamb was slain in Jerusalem.
2. There is only one Savior.
You see, there is only one Sabbath. It is not arbitrarily up to us to decide when "our Sabbath" is. The Sabbath is on the Seventh day, NOT "one day in seven." The world wants a Messiah that fits their schedule, their personality, their whims. They want a Messiah of their own choosing. They believe that truth can be arbitrarily and subjectively chosen.
Truth is not a smorgasbord from which we can pick and choose according to our tastes. Yeshua does not offer Himself as a Messiah among many other equally qualified candidates. To say that all days are the same, and that the Sabbath is a day like any other day, is like saying Jesus is a religious leader like all other religious leaders and is no better or different than Buddha, Krishna, Moon, or Mohammed.
The Sabbath glorifies the Lord because it teaches that there is one Savior, and thus only one way to salvation.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Acts 4:12)
3. The Kingdom of God.
The Sabbath is a picture of coming manifestation of the Kingdom of God on Earth.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(Revelation 21:1-4)
Clearly, this does not describe our current situation. This is something still in the future for which we are waiting. It is the final eternal era.
The Sabbath is a prophecy of this. No work is to be done on the Sabbath. The kind of work forbidden by God is "melakhah" it is industrious or creative labor. It includes any kind of craft with stone, cloth, metal, etc. The idea was that just as God ceased creative labor, likewise He was to be imitated by ceasing all creative labor.
The Sabbath is a day where we live as if the world is perfect and no work can be done to improve it. It is a microcosm of the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Sabbath is like an entire age within a day.
When the Sabbath is observed it is a living representation of the Gospel from the creation of the world to the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Sabbath teaches us about the rest of the Gospel, the exaltation of the Messiah as the ONLY way of salvation, and the eternal, blessed Mamlakah Elohim (Kingdom of God)!!
B'rukh Shem K'vod Malkhuto L'olam v'ed!!!
--------------------
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
(Isaiah 62:6-7)
The LORD shall bless thee out of Zion: and thou shalt see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life.
(Psalms 128:5)
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:6)
Ohev Yisrael Yesterday, 08:52 PM Post #64
Hmmm... Don't know exactly where to start on this, so I will just throw some stuff out and see where it lands, LOL
To properly understand the Sabbath, you have to really understand why God sanctified the Seventh Day.
The Torah is really what we call "Tavinot" in Hebrew. Tavinot means "pictures." We as humans think in pictures. If I say "dog." Which dog do you think about? You may think about your dog, or the neighbor's dog. If I say "German Shepherd," we are thinking of the same dog. God utilizes this method in the Torah. The Torah is a set of pictures of our Messiah, Yeshua. They all point to Him. Paul writes the following:
Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah.
(Colossians 2:16-17)
Two things here. The church at Colosse was under attack by the Gnostics who believed the material world to be evil. Therefore the Sabbaths, Festivals and other such commandments were unacceptable since the Festivals and the Sabbath sanctify matter, time and space. The Festivals are unique because they take even the most mundane activities like eating and cause them to be act of worship to the Lord (not that such cannot be done all of the time, but the Festivals are uniquely constructed unto this purpose).
So contrary to how many people read these verses, Paul was not warning to the Colossians about Jews who would judge them for not keeping the Festivals, he was warning the Colossians about the Gnostics who judged those who did keep the Festivals. It is historical fact that many Gentile believers kept the Sabbath and the Passover until the 4th century. Much of what we know today in institutional Christianity came about after the 4th century.
My second point is that v. 17 tells us that the Festivals were shadow (sketch in Greek) of what was to come. He is the substance or the "main idea" of the Sabbath. He is Sabbath made flesh.
So, what pictures do we see in the Sabbath?
1. Rest. After God created man, He sanctified the Seventh day and Adam entered into God's rest. Likewise Yeshua says:
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:28-30)
He offers us sweet rest.
Rest from guilt
Rest from shame
Rest from condemnation
Rest from fear
Rest from groaning under the weight of our wretchedness
Rest from vile affections
Rest from trying to work ourselves into God's favor
God worked for six days before man could enter His rest. Jesus was on the cross for six hours before we could enter into the rest of salvation. This is no coincidence. Jesus said that His life was His to give, and no man could take it from Him. Even on the cross, Jesus was in complete control of everything. He died when He wanted to die, and not a second too soon, and not a second too late. He died in exactly six hours between the evenings when the Passover lamb was slain in Jerusalem.
2. There is only one Savior.
You see, there is only one Sabbath. It is not arbitrarily up to us to decide when "our Sabbath" is. The Sabbath is on the Seventh day, NOT "one day in seven." The world wants a Messiah that fits their schedule, their personality, their whims. They want a Messiah of their own choosing. They believe that truth can be arbitrarily and subjectively chosen.
Truth is not a smorgasbord from which we can pick and choose according to our tastes. Yeshua does not offer Himself as a Messiah among many other equally qualified candidates. To say that all days are the same, and that the Sabbath is a day like any other day, is like saying Jesus is a religious leader like all other religious leaders and is no better or different than Buddha, Krishna, Moon, or Mohammed.
The Sabbath glorifies the Lord because it teaches that there is one Savior, and thus only one way to salvation.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Acts 4:12)
3. The Kingdom of God.
The Sabbath is a picture of coming manifestation of the Kingdom of God on Earth.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(Revelation 21:1-4)
Clearly, this does not describe our current situation. This is something still in the future for which we are waiting. It is the final eternal era.
The Sabbath is a prophecy of this. No work is to be done on the Sabbath. The kind of work forbidden by God is "melakhah" it is industrious or creative labor. It includes any kind of craft with stone, cloth, metal, etc. The idea was that just as God ceased creative labor, likewise He was to be imitated by ceasing all creative labor.
The Sabbath is a day where we live as if the world is perfect and no work can be done to improve it. It is a microcosm of the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Sabbath is like an entire age within a day.
When the Sabbath is observed it is a living representation of the Gospel from the creation of the world to the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Sabbath teaches us about the rest of the Gospel, the exaltation of the Messiah as the ONLY way of salvation, and the eternal, blessed Mamlakah Elohim (Kingdom of God)!!
B'rukh Shem K'vod Malkhuto L'olam v'ed!!!
--------------------
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
(Isaiah 62:6-7)
The LORD shall bless thee out of Zion: and thou shalt see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life.
(Psalms 128:5)
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:6)
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Post #2
Ohev Yisrael Today, 06:31 AM Post #72
It is interesting how Christians have been conditioned to have this stigma against anything "Jewish." The only Jews most Christians know anything about are the Pharisees, and even then they really don't anything about the Pharisees, who they were, or what was really going on between them and Jesus, and this has led to a lot of misunderstanding. This misunderstanding has led to a lot of false conclusions about what Jesus was condemning when He confronted the Jewish leadership concerning things like the Sabbath, hand washing and a variety of other issues.
First of all, Jesus/Yeshua was a Pharisee. The Pharisees were the Torah teachers, the Rabbis. How do you suppose it was that they called Him "Rabbi?" It was not because he was an able public speaker. "Rabbi" is an earned title, like "professor" or "Dr." In those days, you had to study, under another Rabbi and/or attend one of the academies of the day, to attain this title. Only another Rabbi could confer this upon you.
The Pharisees numbered in the tens of thousands in first century, making them the single largest religious sect in Israel. There 9 different orders of Pharisees, each one thought the other eight were morons. Religious debate was very common among the different schools of Pharisees. Two of the most famous schools were the school of Shammai and the School of Hillel. Hillel would have been an early contemporary of Jesus. It is believed by some that he probably died when Jesus was still a boy.
When we closely examine what Jesus said, we see echos of the Talmud. In fact, when Jesus said, "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath," He was actually taking that remark from the Talmud. It says in the Talmud: Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b
There are other things that Jesus said which echo Talmudic flavor. As a Jew, Jesus would have been familiar with the Talmud as any Jew would. Study of Talmud has always been the responsibility of every Jew, not just the Rabbis.
When Jesus debated the Pharisees about the Sabbath, one must understand that it was simply a Rabbinic debate that was not at all uncommon. What made Jesus' debates so interesting, the reason people marvelled at Jesus when He confronted the Pharisees, was his Galilean origins. The Rabbis of Galilee were not considered as educated as the Rabbis trained at the more sophisticated academies in Jerusalem. So for Jesus to stump the more "educated" men from Jerusalem was a sight to behold. It just was not every day that a Galilean Rabbi scored as many points as this one did. I am sure these confrontations must have took on some entertainment value for those looking on.
When it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus was confronting NOT the Sabbath itself, but the legalism and hypocrisy that SOME of the Pharisees employed regarding its observance. Jesus was not against the observance of the Sabbath, but the way some of the Pharisees expected the common man to live under their legalistic burdens, while finding loopholes for themselves that would excuse their need to follow the rules they imposed on everyone else, while still maintaining their deceptive, outward piety.
Jesus also confronted the Pharisees when they trumped up charges against Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, when even they knew that healing was not forbidden, and in fact, NO good deed was prohibited on the Sabbath, according to the Talmud. He exposed them for misapplying Sabbath simply as means of smearing Him and His ministry.
Jesus was not a Sabbath breaker, Paul was not a Sabbath, breaker, and neither were any of the disciples. Unfortunately, the modern Church has not made the necessary moral distinctions between condemning the legalistic practices employed by some in their misguided approach to the Sabbath, and the Sabbath itself. Too often in the minds of many, Sabbath = Legalistic. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction. As a result, so many Christians miss the beautiful pictures, and the important lessons it contains.
The Sabbath is important to understand because as a day sanctified by God, it teaches us the importance of the difference between the holy and the secular. It teaches us that there is a distinction, and that which is holy is not to be treated as common. We have not learned that lesson, and even when it is pointed out it is labeled a legalistic. We as Christians should be different, and we should be noticeably different. We should be different in our speech, our attitudes, conduct, our appearance, everything. We are a people set apart, sanctified and too often we prefer to blur lines that separate us from the world. Just as the Sabbath is not just another day like the other six, we are not just another group of people, we do not serve just another religious figure. We are Kings and Priests, servants of the very Creator of universe, and we should conduct ourselves as such. That is a very important lesson of the Sabbath.
If you do not want to observe the Sabbath day, that is your prerogative. Please do not condemn, or attempt to demonize as "legalistic" those who choose to observe the Sabbath. Please do not assign false values to them, and accuse them of trying to earn their salvation, or something. Such charges are plainly false. If you do not want to bother studying about the Sabbath, please do not presume that you have the right to sit in self-righteous judgement over something you do not understand.
--------------------
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
(Isaiah 62:6-7)
The LORD shall bless thee out of Zion: and thou shalt see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life.
(Psalms 128:5)
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:6)
Ohev Yisrael Today, 06:31 AM Post #72
It is interesting how Christians have been conditioned to have this stigma against anything "Jewish." The only Jews most Christians know anything about are the Pharisees, and even then they really don't anything about the Pharisees, who they were, or what was really going on between them and Jesus, and this has led to a lot of misunderstanding. This misunderstanding has led to a lot of false conclusions about what Jesus was condemning when He confronted the Jewish leadership concerning things like the Sabbath, hand washing and a variety of other issues.
First of all, Jesus/Yeshua was a Pharisee. The Pharisees were the Torah teachers, the Rabbis. How do you suppose it was that they called Him "Rabbi?" It was not because he was an able public speaker. "Rabbi" is an earned title, like "professor" or "Dr." In those days, you had to study, under another Rabbi and/or attend one of the academies of the day, to attain this title. Only another Rabbi could confer this upon you.
The Pharisees numbered in the tens of thousands in first century, making them the single largest religious sect in Israel. There 9 different orders of Pharisees, each one thought the other eight were morons. Religious debate was very common among the different schools of Pharisees. Two of the most famous schools were the school of Shammai and the School of Hillel. Hillel would have been an early contemporary of Jesus. It is believed by some that he probably died when Jesus was still a boy.
When we closely examine what Jesus said, we see echos of the Talmud. In fact, when Jesus said, "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath," He was actually taking that remark from the Talmud. It says in the Talmud: Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b
There are other things that Jesus said which echo Talmudic flavor. As a Jew, Jesus would have been familiar with the Talmud as any Jew would. Study of Talmud has always been the responsibility of every Jew, not just the Rabbis.
When Jesus debated the Pharisees about the Sabbath, one must understand that it was simply a Rabbinic debate that was not at all uncommon. What made Jesus' debates so interesting, the reason people marvelled at Jesus when He confronted the Pharisees, was his Galilean origins. The Rabbis of Galilee were not considered as educated as the Rabbis trained at the more sophisticated academies in Jerusalem. So for Jesus to stump the more "educated" men from Jerusalem was a sight to behold. It just was not every day that a Galilean Rabbi scored as many points as this one did. I am sure these confrontations must have took on some entertainment value for those looking on.
When it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus was confronting NOT the Sabbath itself, but the legalism and hypocrisy that SOME of the Pharisees employed regarding its observance. Jesus was not against the observance of the Sabbath, but the way some of the Pharisees expected the common man to live under their legalistic burdens, while finding loopholes for themselves that would excuse their need to follow the rules they imposed on everyone else, while still maintaining their deceptive, outward piety.
Jesus also confronted the Pharisees when they trumped up charges against Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, when even they knew that healing was not forbidden, and in fact, NO good deed was prohibited on the Sabbath, according to the Talmud. He exposed them for misapplying Sabbath simply as means of smearing Him and His ministry.
Jesus was not a Sabbath breaker, Paul was not a Sabbath, breaker, and neither were any of the disciples. Unfortunately, the modern Church has not made the necessary moral distinctions between condemning the legalistic practices employed by some in their misguided approach to the Sabbath, and the Sabbath itself. Too often in the minds of many, Sabbath = Legalistic. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction. As a result, so many Christians miss the beautiful pictures, and the important lessons it contains.
The Sabbath is important to understand because as a day sanctified by God, it teaches us the importance of the difference between the holy and the secular. It teaches us that there is a distinction, and that which is holy is not to be treated as common. We have not learned that lesson, and even when it is pointed out it is labeled a legalistic. We as Christians should be different, and we should be noticeably different. We should be different in our speech, our attitudes, conduct, our appearance, everything. We are a people set apart, sanctified and too often we prefer to blur lines that separate us from the world. Just as the Sabbath is not just another day like the other six, we are not just another group of people, we do not serve just another religious figure. We are Kings and Priests, servants of the very Creator of universe, and we should conduct ourselves as such. That is a very important lesson of the Sabbath.
If you do not want to observe the Sabbath day, that is your prerogative. Please do not condemn, or attempt to demonize as "legalistic" those who choose to observe the Sabbath. Please do not assign false values to them, and accuse them of trying to earn their salvation, or something. Such charges are plainly false. If you do not want to bother studying about the Sabbath, please do not presume that you have the right to sit in self-righteous judgement over something you do not understand.
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I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
(Isaiah 62:6-7)
The LORD shall bless thee out of Zion: and thou shalt see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life.
(Psalms 128:5)
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:6)
Spiritual Mad Man,
I havent read all the two posts above but I can see he already has it wrong from the start.
"Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah.
(Colossians 2:16-17)"
The "sabbath days" referred to here have nothing whatever to do with the 7th day Sabbath of the Moral Law..
It was about the yearly feast days of the ceremonial law. Jewish Christians were judging Gentile Christians for not observing them. Paul is simply saying, "Don't judge each other. That ceremonial law is no longer binding."
I havent read all the two posts above but I can see he already has it wrong from the start.
"Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah.
(Colossians 2:16-17)"
The "sabbath days" referred to here have nothing whatever to do with the 7th day Sabbath of the Moral Law..
It was about the yearly feast days of the ceremonial law. Jewish Christians were judging Gentile Christians for not observing them. Paul is simply saying, "Don't judge each other. That ceremonial law is no longer binding."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now lets "see" what GOD said was HIS reason for "sanctifying" the Sabbath!
("Sola Scriptura" for a change)
so now it is left "as an exercise for the reader" to see in the bold type above what the "THEREFORE" is "There For"
("Sola Scriptura" for a change)
God "says" THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND MADE it Holy
so now it is left "as an exercise for the reader" to see in the bold type above what the "THEREFORE" is "There For"
God "says" THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND MADE it Holy
so now it is left "as an exercise for the reader" to see in the bold type above what the "THEREFORE" is "There For" </font>[/QUOTE]Bob
What do you mean by saying God "sanctified" the Sabbath? Where does it say that?
The Bible says that the Sabbath is a sign that the Lord "sanctifies us" and makes us holy.
Doesnt it?
SPIRITUAL MAD MAN!!!
That guy says:"When it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus was confronting NOT the Sabbath itself, but the legalism and hypocrisy that SOME of the Pharisees employed regarding its observance. Jesus was not against the observance of the Sabbath, but the way some of the Pharisees expected the common man to live under their legalistic burdens, while finding loopholes for themselves that would excuse their need to follow the rules they imposed on everyone else, while still maintaining their deceptive, outward piety.
Jesus also confronted the Pharisees when they trumped up charges against Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, when even they knew that healing was not forbidden, and in fact, NO good deed was prohibited on the Sabbath, according to the Talmud. He exposed them for misapplying Sabbath simply as means of smearing Him and His ministry.
"
Now isnt that what I have been saying all along???!!!
Why wont you listen to ME when I try and tell you that??
That guy says:"When it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus was confronting NOT the Sabbath itself, but the legalism and hypocrisy that SOME of the Pharisees employed regarding its observance. Jesus was not against the observance of the Sabbath, but the way some of the Pharisees expected the common man to live under their legalistic burdens, while finding loopholes for themselves that would excuse their need to follow the rules they imposed on everyone else, while still maintaining their deceptive, outward piety.
Jesus also confronted the Pharisees when they trumped up charges against Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, when even they knew that healing was not forbidden, and in fact, NO good deed was prohibited on the Sabbath, according to the Talmud. He exposed them for misapplying Sabbath simply as means of smearing Him and His ministry.
"
Now isnt that what I have been saying all along???!!!
Why wont you listen to ME when I try and tell you that??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bob said --
God "says" THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND MADE it Holy
so now it is left "as an exercise for the reader" to see in the bold type above what the "THEREFORE" is "There For"
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The term in Exodus 20 is translated in "Made it Holy" above.
In Gen 2:3 the same term is rendered "Sanctified".
In Christ,
Bob