Saddleback - Pro & Con

[All about Grace]

Expository preaching is the way to go.

Like it or not, you just introduced a human method into the picture. Expository preaching is a method constructed by humans in order to communicate God's truth. Beginning to see the difficulty in being consistent with your view?

AC, Sound system and padded pews are nice, but they have no effect if someone is going to be saved or not.

Theologically speaking.

But if you eliminate them, practically speaking, you are making an unwise choice that raises unnecessary obstacles.

Will there be people who are going to hell who could have gone to heaven because you didn't say/do the right thing?

Everyone will be in Heaven that God intends to be in Heaven through the MEANS God intends for them to respond.

Again, why do anything other than read the text or why do anything at all if we are only arguing from the theological point of view?

 

[steveo]

3. Every Service Should Be An Evangelistic Service

We need to make sure our church members know they can share the gospel with their friends and they can be saved.
Many seem to think that you have to bring them to church and then they will be saved.

 

[Amish Dave]

But expository teaching and reasoning are suported by scripture. Paul did it all the time. He explained what old testiment scripture meant when he would go into the temples to talk to the jews. (This was not during the gathering of the church. He did this on his own.)

That isn't inconsistent at all. What isn't consisant with scripture is Cutting/softening truth or conforming your WORSHIP services to unbelievers needs.

Is that what you would call getting rid of unnecessary obsticals?

I am glad that we agree that everyone will be in heaven that God intends to be in Heaven through the means that he intends for them to respond. Which is hearing of the word of God.

Preaching in your worship services are not meant to be evangelical thus your method is unbiblical. You are to go out into the world and spread the gospel.

I will get back to the artical you provided this weekend.

Dave

 

[All about Grace]

But expository teaching and reasoning are suported by scripture.

Just as topical teaching is.

By the way, I practice expositional preaching and teaching (with an application emphasis). I just recognize it for what it is -- a method employed to communicate God's truth.

This was not during the gathering of the church. He did this on his own

It is almost humorous how you have to clarify your own arguments here to try and stay consistent. Were there unbelievers present in 1 Cor 14?

Is Paul's method the prescribed method or does Acts simply describe what Paul did? Be careful. If it is the prescribed method, even the most Reformed-minded congregations have some serious adjustments to make.

What isn't consisant with scripture is Cutting/softening truth

You have yet to show how the truth has been softened or cut.

conforming your WORSHIP services to unbelievers needs

once again demonstrating how you misunderstand the overall paradigm.

I ask again: should we be seeker INsensitive?

I am glad that we agree that everyone will be in heaven that God intends to be in Heaven through the means that he intends for them to respond. Which is hearing of the word of God.

And I am glad your preferred method of communicating the Word is not the only one.

Preaching in your worship services are not meant to be evangelical

I guess you meant evangelistic and not evangelical.

Can you point me to that text where it indicates evangelistic preaching is unbiblical?

Based upon your own logic here, should preaching be non-evangelistic???

 

[superdave]

Much of the pragmatic and practical suggestions made by Warren in TPDC are merely removing barriers to the communication of the message and can be used effectively. As long as you are not compromising Biblical principle, many of the traditional methods and practices are merely that, tradition and practice, not Biblical mandates.

Our church views the Sunday Worship service as just that, it is a calling of the body together to worship God. The fact that many people are in the service nearly every week that are unsaved is peripheral to the purpose of that service. There will always be an invitation, and definitely a clear Gospel presentation during the message, but the service is designed and purposed for the church body.

The other activities, Adult Bible Fellowship classes, AWANA, Ladies Bible Study, Morning out for Moms, Cornerstone (Young Adults), Youth Activities, etc are much more evangelistic in nature than our Worship service. The fact remains that people who see the church worshipping God, and hear the truth of the Word, and get involved in an ABF where they see a smaller group of believers demonstrating true christian fellowship, they like what they see. John said "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35

The theological fact remains that the reason they are there in the first place and are receptive to the message is that the Father is drawing them to himself.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Part of the problem here is assuming that the Sunday mornign service must be a worship service as opposed to an evangelistic service. Many of these types of churches don't even call their Sunday AM service a worship service. For them, it is evangelistic. Their worship service is on a weeknight. There is nothing unbiblical about that. Nor is there anything wrong with having a worship service on Sunday morning.

Secondly, there is a false dichotomy that worship and evangelism cannot take place at the same service. That is simply wrong.

Thirdly, the fact is that most visitors are going to attend church on Sunday AM. Unfortunately, in many IFB churches, that is the service that is least geared toward them. That is problemmatic.

Scripture mandates that both evangelism and worship are to take place in the church. We must do both. It is not an either or option. I think Warren's preaching is weak (as I have said before). But the problem is not that he is too evangelistic when he should be worshipping. They accomplish their deeper teaching on weeknights, according to my understanding.

That is the point of being purpose driven: Form follows function. That is not pragmatic and should not lead to an anything goes mentality. It should drive us to find out what we are supposed to be doing, and then figure out how to do it.

 

[superdave]

As usual I agree with you Pastor Larry.

You can be a purpose driven ministry without throwing away all restraint and having an anything goes mentality. Its all about designing your ministry to be as effective as possible while using Biblical principles to guide your decisions.

I agree also about Worship and Evangelism. Now I will say that the preaching at our church is almost always pretty deep teaching, but it appeals to the unsaved because it is the Truth! Most of our outreach geared services, Cantatas, Special Services, etc are on Sunday morning, in recognition that is when most visitors come.

Also much of the critisicm of Mega Churches is that they "have fluffy preaching" and don't teach doctrine, when they do, just not maybe as much from the pulpit on Sunday morning, but in smaller groups, or in other venues. The opportunities are there most of the time.

I have been to 4 or 5 churches that would be considered "Mega" 2 Non-denominational and two Baptist. All of them had more in depth Bible teaching than most IFB churches I have attended, and while the preaching was lighter than I was used to, it was very solid, expository, and confrontational (at least 3 out of 5) My current church has many opportunities for doctrinal teaching, in addition to the normal services and Sunday Morning Adult Bible Fellowships, a Bible Institute that teaches basically college level Bible classes, and Men's and Women's Bible studies, etc.

PDC is one of the best books on church growth, its also probably one of the worst.