Saints in Ephesus, Saved or unsaved?

[jbh28]

I was looking at a church's beliefs online and they mentioned that they believed that you could receive the Spirit after salvation instead of at Salvation. In other words, a person could get saved and not have the Spirit indwelling them till later. Their proof of this was in this passage.

It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.
(Acts 19:1-7)​

Now, my question is this. Were these people already saved and received the Spirit after salvation, or were these people not saved and were saved here? One thing I noticed is that they are believing in a future Jesus. (vs3, 4). After that they were baptized in the name of Jesus and were filled with the Spirit.

One other passage that comes to mind is Paul in Romans 8:9, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

This passage says that if you don't have the Spirit, you are not saved.

1. Were these people saved?
2. If they were, does this still apply for today since we now have the full relaxation of God and they didn't?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Look at the instances when believers received the holy Spirit (baptism, indwelling) in the NT.

Out of all the times the Spirit is mentioned, how many times did this happen?

To whom?

Significance of these rare instances?

Disciples were saved by the holy Spirit (only way is His inner regeneration). Jesus promised subsequently they would receive the permanent indwelling of the holy Spirit. Before that, the work of the holy Spirit's indwelling was "temporary"

So to Jewish converts it happened in Acts 2 (Pentecost)
To gentile converts in Acts 10 (Cornelius)
To disciples of John in Acts 19 (Ephesus)

Where else?

 

[Iconoclast]

I was looking at a church's beliefs online and they mentioned that they believed that you could receive the Spirit after salvation instead of at Salvation. In other words, a person could get saved and not have the Spirit indwelling them till later. Their proof of this was in this passage.

It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.
(Acts 19:1-7)​

Now, my question is this. Were these people already saved and received the Spirit after salvation, or were these people not saved and were saved here? One thing I noticed is that they are believing in a future Jesus. (vs3, 4). After that they were baptized in the name of Jesus and were filled with the Spirit.

One other passage that comes to mind is Paul in Romans 8:9, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

This passage says that if you don't have the Spirit, you are not saved.

1. Were these people saved?
2. If they were, does this still apply for today since we now have the full relaxation of God and they didn't?

John's baptism was before the cross...
Acts 19 happens years after the cross.....these were OT saints who transitioned into the NT here in Acts 19...

There were people alive here who were alive before,and after the cross.
In the Ot the Spirit is said to be with believers....in the NT the Spirit is said to be indwelling believers.

 

[jbh28]

John's baptism was before the cross...
Acts 19 happens years after the cross.....these were OT saints who transitioned into the NT here in Acts 19...

There were people alive here who were alive before,and after the cross.
In the Ot the Spirit is said to be with believers....in the NT the Spirit is said to be indwelling believers.

So you and Dr. Bob would say that they were saved, just had not received the Spirit yet. However, this was a "transition" period(like Dr. Bob's examples of Acts 2, 10, 19) and today(and by the time Paul wrote Romans) would receive the Spirit at Salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you and Dr. Bob would say that they were saved, just had not received the Spirit yet. However, this was a "transition" period(like Dr. Bob's examples of Acts 2, 10, 19) and today(and by the time Paul wrote Romans) would receive the Spirit at Salvation.

Yes.....Jesus before the cross had taught the Spirit has been with you...but He shall be in you.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-18

 

[jbh28]

Yes.....Jesus before the cross had taught the Spirit has been with you...but He shall be in you.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-18

thanks! I saw it as a proof text and wanted to know what was going on. Thanks guys!

 

[Iconoclast]

thanks! I saw it as a proof text and wanted to know what was going on. Thanks guys!

One other thought....Presbyterians are more likely to say that all saints in the bible were indwelt with the Spirit...at all times..

Then others point out that David prayed...take not your Holy Spirit from me.

How New is the New Covenant gets discussed when this topic comes up.
but all these lead to other threads:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

I was looking at a church's beliefs online and they mentioned that they believed that you could receive the Spirit after salvation instead of at Salvation. In other words, a person could get saved and not have the Spirit indwelling them till later. Their proof of this was in this passage.

It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.
(Acts 19:1-7)​

Now, my question is this. Were these people already saved and received the Spirit after salvation, or were these people not saved and were saved here? One thing I noticed is that they are believing in a future Jesus. (vs3, 4). After that they were baptized in the name of Jesus and were filled with the Spirit.

One other passage that comes to mind is Paul in Romans 8:9, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

This passage says that if you don't have the Spirit, you are not saved.

1. Were these people saved?
2. If they were, does this still apply for today since we now have the full relaxation of God and they didn't?

Was this a pentecostal church? They hold to this "belief", that you are saved, and after you begin "speaking in toungues", that this is the holy Ghost working in you now. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith, looking to the cross, and the holy Ghost moved upon them at times, but never permanently indwelt them. Now, we are saved by grace through faith, looking back to the cross. We now have the holy Ghost indwelling in us....the OT saints did not have the luxury of the permanent indwelling of the hoy Ghost.

 

[JesusFan]

I was looking at a church's beliefs online and they mentioned that they believed that you could receive the Spirit after salvation instead of at Salvation. In other words, a person could get saved and not have the Spirit indwelling them till later. Their proof of this was in this passage.

It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.
(Acts 19:1-7)​

Now, my question is this. Were these people already saved and received the Spirit after salvation, or were these people not saved and were saved here? One thing I noticed is that they are believing in a future Jesus. (vs3, 4). After that they were baptized in the name of Jesus and were filled with the Spirit.

One other passage that comes to mind is Paul in Romans 8:9, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

This passage says that if you don't have the Spirit, you are not saved.

1. Were these people saved?
2. If they were, does this still apply for today since we now have the full relaxation of God and they didn't?

Acts was a transistional Book in the Bible...
recorded that God worked with jewish peoples at Pentacost, with Gentiles in life of Roman Cornilius, and in the Samiritans...

So things happened back then NOT same way as today, in order to prove the validity of the Gospel to jews/Gentiles alike, to confirm what was done was "legit"

And the group you were reading about are probably a pentacostal Church, that would say actually we get the holy spirit when saved, but need to get the "power" to live and witness by a second act of grace, "Baptism" in the HS...

Sort of like when Westlyns talk on/about a second act of grace, empowering by HS, and attaining to "sinless perfection" by it!