Saints removed

[rlvaughn]

While looking at word change statistics on Robert Slowley's website, I happened to notice that the NIV went from 69 uses of the word "saints" in 1984 to zero uses in 2011. I found that intriguing. I went on Bible Gateway and checked other versions (not all of them, though, but including Wycliffe, Geneva, KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, CSB, LEB). Many common Bible versions, old & new, have 60 to 100 verses with the word saint or saints, while I found that the NIV and NLT have no instances. So it seems the NLT may be the only other newer Bible to go that direction. These two have several words, such as holy ones, holy people, God's people, and others.

What do you think of this change, and why do you think it was made?

Thanks.

 

[McCree79]

I always translate ἁγίοις has "holy ones". It just made more sense to me since it was the plural of Άγιος (holy).

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Rippon2]

I only checked for "holy people."

NABRE : 84
CEB : 32
NRSV : 31
CSB : 20
LEB and NET : 19
ISV : 17
NIV : 12

 

[alexander284]

While looking at word change statistics on Robert Slowley's website, I happened to notice that the NIV went from 69 uses of the word "saints" in 1984 to zero uses in 2011. I found that intriguing. I went on Bible Gateway and checked other versions (not all of them, though, but including Wycliffe, Geneva, KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, CSB, LEB). Many common Bible versions, old & new, have 60 to 100 verses with the word saint or saints, while I found that the NIV and NLT have no instances. So it seems the NLT may be the only other newer Bible to go that direction. These two have several words, such as holy ones, holy people, God's people, and others.

What do you think of this change, and why do you think it was made?

Thanks.

I prefer using the term "saints."

I think it's done because when people hear "saints," they immediately think of it in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church uses it.

 

[MartyF]

What do you think of this change, and why do you think it was made?

In common vernacular, Saint doesn’t mean the same thing as it use to. Through tv and other media the word generally has a primarily Catholic meaning. Most common people would think of Catholic saints when they read this in the Bible - not a more general notion used by some older translations.

 

[rlvaughn]

I only checked for "holy people."
NABRE : 84
CEB : 32
NRSV : 31
CSB : 20
LEB and NET : 19
ISV : 17
NIV : 12

I notice that the NABRE almost makes the same decision as the NIV and NLT, retaining “saints” only in Matthew 27:52.

I prefer using the term "saints."
I think it's done because when people hear "saints," they immediately think of it in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church uses it.

...Most common people would think of Catholic saints when they read this in the Bible - not a more general notion used by some older translations.

Yes, I was thinking that possibly could be in the background of the reasoning for removing the words. The following quote from “A Word to the Reader” in the TNIV confirms that, I believe, while avoiding mentioning any particular church or denomination.

“Concerning ‘saints,’ current usage (as reflected in major dictionaries of the English language) burdens it with meanings that lie outside the sense of the original-language words. The main Old Testament term that has traditionally been rendered ‘saints’ refers to those who are faithful to God. The New Testament term primarily designates those who have become followers of the Christian Way as people consecrated to God and thus belonging to the Lord in a special sense...” Quoted in the Zondervan TNIV Compact Concordance, by John R. Kohlenberger, III

There is a good bit of confusion about what Catholics actually believe about saints. Some people think they mean an extra-holy person, someone on a much higher level than the average or regular Christian. (When people are thinking that way, I don’t think “holy ones” solves the problem.) However, for Roman Catholics at least, “saints” basically are dead people, not living ones. According to one Catholic website, “In Catholic theology, the term ‘Saint’ is reserved for those individuals who have led a holy and exemplary life and have now entered Heaven.” The NABRE (a Catholic translation) rendering of Matthew 27:52 is consistent with that view. While people may be confused by the word itself, the widespread use of “saints” in English translations for all Christians contradicts the Roman Catholic view of saints. Oddly enough, the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (a Catholic Bible) has “saint” or “saints” in 119 verses (including the Apocrypha).

Notes

• Saint and saints is not just used in older translations. For example LEB is © 2012 and CSB © 2017.
• Some versions (CSB, for example) have retained “saints” in the New Testament, but not in the Old.

 

[Yeshua1]

I notice that the NABRE almost makes the same decision as the NIV and NLT, retaining “saints” only in Matthew 27:52.
Yes, I was thinking that possibly could be in the background of the reasoning for removing the words. The following quote from “A Word to the Reader” in the TNIV confirms that, I believe, while avoiding mentioning any particular church or denomination.

There is a good bit of confusion about what Catholics actually believe about saints. Some people think they mean an extra-holy person, someone on a much higher level than the average or regular Christian. (When people are thinking that way, I don’t think “holy ones” solves the problem.) However, for Roman Catholics at least, “saints” basically are dead people, not living ones. According to one Catholic website, “In Catholic theology, the term ‘Saint’ is reserved for those individuals who have led a holy and exemplary life and have now entered Heaven.” The NABRE (a Catholic translation) rendering of Matthew 27:52 is consistent with that view. While people may be confused by the word itself, the widespread use of “saints” in English translations for all Christians contradicts the Roman Catholic view of saints. Oddly enough, the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (a Catholic Bible) has “saint” or “saints” in 119 verses (including the Apocrypha).

Notes

• Saint and saints is not just used in older translations. For example LEB is © 2012 and CSB © 2017.
• Some versions (CSB, for example) have retained “saints” in the New Testament, but not in the Old.

Saints in Catholic theology would be those who so cooperated with the Graces of God that they actually arrived at a spiritual state meriting God to save them in this life, so went straight to heaven. Vast majority will end up in purgatory, in order to atone and pay for their sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

I prefer using the term "saints."

I think it's done because when people hear "saints," they immediately think of it in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church uses it.

Perhaps, but also like that saints in the older versions referred to all of the saved as now Holy to God, not just a certain super saint group!