• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Salary Advance

C

Careous

New Member
This might be a long and confusing topic, and I hope I get through this with enough information to convey the seriousness of this situation.

We are a church about 3 years old. We have about 45k in the bank. Our current expenses exceed our current income. This has been disclosed at every elders meeting.

The pastor has asked for a salary advance. The request is equal to his full yearly salary of 30k. We have not set up policies for salary advancement, but most guidelines are saying the max advancement is to the pay period. Anything more would be considered a loan.

The elders had discussed this and authorized a payment of 10k to help him with some of his financial burdens. It was not an unanimous vote. It was a 3 to 2 split.

Now the pastor is calling another meeting because the amount approved was not enough and he is pressing for the full amount. This will fund his business for the next year and he needs it all lump sum as soon as possible.

I don't believe this is a sound financial decision. I am unsure of the legal repercussions if the church fails since we are incorporated. I am also uneasy because it feels as if the pastors is bullying the elders until he gets his way on this.

I am most concerned about the lack of regard for the church's finances. The comments are always about checking our spirit or that our faith is weak. We have had a significant decline in membership and financial contributions but mentioning that only brings about further comments of our lacking of faith and bad spirit.

Any suggestions or comments are welcomed and hopefully helpful.
 
H

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I find this very concerning:
If his is a viable business, it stands to reason that he should be able to procure a business loan. If he merely needs a loan to keep it afloat, it isn't a very viable business.

The church is already running at a deficit thus, it is prima facie unwise to hand over 2/3rds of the savings in one fell swoop which sound very likely not to be repaid. I understand that 30k may not be sufficient for his needs but that is why churches all over have bi-vocational pastors. The only caution to "bi-vocational" pastorships for churches is that the Church needs to treat him fairly and not insist that he work full-time for part time pay (which is the reality for many bi-vo's). Give him enough time to work a part time job.

I think your instincts on this matter are quite correct. This sounds (as you've told it) to be a very unwise financial decision, and, to put it mildly: I can't imagine a pastor who genuinely loves the flock as he ought to would even ask that of them.
 
Rob_BW

Rob_BW

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why is the pastor using the church as a bank?

I could see helping with a medical or disaster expense. But funding a personal business? Seems crazy.
 
Son of Robert

Son of Robert

Member
Careous said:
This will fund his business for the next year and he needs it all lump sum as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

Not only is it concerning that he wants a full year salary advance, but the fact that he seems ungrateful with the amount the church is willing to help him with is deeply troublesome. Unless there's part of this scenario we don't know about, his request should be denied. I'm also concerned whether his struggling business is affecting his calling.
 
H

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rob_BW said:
Why is the pastor using the church as a bank?
I could see helping with a medical or disaster expense. But funding a personal business? Seems crazy.
Click to expand...
Yes!....Something a Church should happily do for any of its members regardless of office.
 
H

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Careous said:
The comments are always about checking our spirit or that our faith is weak. We have had a significant decline in membership and financial contributions but mentioning that only brings about further comments of our lacking of faith and bad spirit.
Click to expand...
This is the stuff that has me especially concerned.
I hate to say this sounds more like manipulation than the advice of a Godly shepherd.
 
M

MartyF

Well-Known Member
Hmm . . .

People will be less willing to give if they know the money will be shoveled into a failing business which is failing in the most robust economy seen in decades.

I'm assuming that the "preacher"/businessman has opened his businesses books so that people can see the financial welfare.

Personally, I would tell the preacher to drop the "business" and get a job. The church should pay for any wages unpaid to the businesses workers to avoid scandal.
 
C

Careous

New Member
He is bivocational and owns a used car lot. His annual salary is 30k a year. We have one service a week currently, with no plans to do any more than the one.

My concerns is giving him a loan, which is what this will be, with no collateral or payment plan. We are incorporated, which means we are a business. If this all goes sideways, this might be considered embezzlement? And we have no regulations for or against loaning people money.

I was always taught that advancement was equal to the next period max. How ever this is a whole year which would be a loan not an advancement?

I am more worried about the legality of the situation. I don't want any of our elders to get in trouble for our pastors financial problems that he created. The church is not a bank and that is how we are being treated.

Thank you for all the comments and information. Guidance and advice is always appreciated.
 
R

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
Careous said:
This might be a long and confusing topic, and I hope I get through this with enough information to convey the seriousness of this situation.

We are a church about 3 years old. We have about 45k in the bank. Our current expenses exceed our current income. This has been disclosed at every elders meeting.

The pastor has asked for a salary advance. The request is equal to his full yearly salary of 30k. We have not set up policies for salary advancement, but most guidelines are saying the max advancement is to the pay period. Anything more would be considered a loan.

The elders had discussed this and authorized a payment of 10k to help him with some of his financial burdens. It was not an unanimous vote. It was a 3 to 2 split.

Now the pastor is calling another meeting because the amount approved was not enough and he is pressing for the full amount. This will fund his business for the next year and he needs it all lump sum as soon as possible.

I don't believe this is a sound financial decision. I am unsure of the legal repercussions if the church fails since we are incorporated. I am also uneasy because it feels as if the pastors is bullying the elders until he gets his way on this.

I am most concerned about the lack of regard for the church's finances. The comments are always about checking our spirit or that our faith is weak. We have had a significant decline in membership and financial contributions but mentioning that only brings about further comments of our lacking of faith and bad spirit.

Any suggestions or comments are welcomed and hopefully helpful.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't the pastor, as an example to the church, be demonstrating faith that God will meet his business needs rather than depending on a huge advance from the church? Sounds like someone has it backward, making his personal business church business.
 
Ziggy

Ziggy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A pertinent question in view of his failing business would be *why* aren't people buying used cars from this man? Also, how might this affect his testimony? Perhaps he might do better to abandon or sell the business and work for a major auto dealer in their used car division.
 
agedman

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Does he own the lot (land) or lease it?

The loan needs security.

Unsecured loans are a gift that have no requirements for repayment.

If there is no security, then no loan.

Unless I have miscalculated, this man is making $576.92 a week from the church for basically one hour of performance.

Nope, he needs removed rather than given a loan.

If I were the assembly, I’d cut his salary to $200 a week, and get the church budget under control.

The man can work longer hours at selling cars, or work nights to support the car selling business.

If he doesn’t conform, decides to perform elsewhere, then the elders can preach a better message than this man, Nd love the people more.

Just my opinion.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Careous said:
This might be a long and confusing topic, and I hope I get through this with enough information to convey the seriousness of this situation.

We are a church about 3 years old. We have about 45k in the bank. Our current expenses exceed our current income. This has been disclosed at every elders meeting.

The pastor has asked for a salary advance. The request is equal to his full yearly salary of 30k. We have not set up policies for salary advancement, but most guidelines are saying the max advancement is to the pay period. Anything more would be considered a loan.

The elders had discussed this and authorized a payment of 10k to help him with some of his financial burdens. It was not an unanimous vote. It was a 3 to 2 split.

Now the pastor is calling another meeting because the amount approved was not enough and he is pressing for the full amount. This will fund his business for the next year and he needs it all lump sum as soon as possible.

I don't believe this is a sound financial decision. I am unsure of the legal repercussions if the church fails since we are incorporated. I am also uneasy because it feels as if the pastors is bullying the elders until he gets his way on this.

I am most concerned about the lack of regard for the church's finances. The comments are always about checking our spirit or that our faith is weak. We have had a significant decline in membership and financial contributions but mentioning that only brings about further comments of our lacking of faith and bad spirit.

Any suggestions or comments are welcomed and hopefully helpful.
Click to expand...
Tell him no.
 
R

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Careous said:
I am more worried about the legality of the situation.
Click to expand...
As MartyF states above, for legal advice consult a lawyer. Our opinions could really steer you wrong on legal issues. However, the best advice concerning the salary advance is to say "no." A year's salary in advance is just crazy in these circumstances I am reading.
Careous said:
The comments are always about checking our spirit or that our faith is weak. We have had a significant decline in membership and financial contributions but mentioning that only brings about further comments of our lacking of faith and bad spirit.
Click to expand...
The "lack of faith" accusation is a significant tool of a pastor bully to guilt a church into doing what he wants them to do. I have heard this used many times over the years. Don't fall for it. Certainly we all have lack of faith at times, but don't let that guilt the church into falling for something as crazy as this year in advance pay.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top