Salvation and sin

It is an ordinance called the communion.

Seems to me, you have some retraction to do.

BBob,

 

I just read your church's articles of faith, and I see where you included it in with the ordinance of communion.. and with that I will not argue...

So there seems to be differences of opinion amongst the ORB as to whether it is an ordinance... as you had posted proof on the Old Regular Thread that at least one article of faith listed it as an ordinance...

Oh well, sorry I hijacked this thread.. I didn't mean to...

I gotta go for now..

But before I do, look at what I found about the Old Regular Baptists on Wiki...

The theology of the group is "election by grace", as stated in the scripture "By Grace are ye saved through faith. While all Old Regulars preach "election by grace "a difference of opinion exists among them concerning election and predestination. Today depending on which group you hear preach, their doctrine ranges from absolute predestination to man being a free moral agent. The majority of Old Regular Baptist hold to a doctrine that is between these extremes, with absolutism the smallest minority. Some churches and associations would be in doctrinal sympathy with the Old Line Primitive Baptist others would be closer to the United Baptist. Churches form local associations by which they fellowship with one another. This fellowship is formally maintained by the associations electing "correspondents" to attend the meetings of the other associations. Preachers are God-called, not trained by man, and unpaid, and preach "improvisational" (often chanted) sermons.Baptism (in running water), the Lord's supper and feet washing are held to be ordinances. Shouting is a frequent occurrence at Old Regular meeting, particularly among the female membership. Conversion experiences may be a lengthy "process," beginning with an awakening to sin, through a period of conviction and travail of the soul, to repentance and belief.

So, just because your church doesn't see it as an ordinance, some ORBs do, and that is just not right...

OK, I'll leave now...

 

You won't argue but then again you will..


I did not accuse you of this, but did accuse you of saying all sins are the same with the Lord.

If all sins are the same and a Christian can commit all of them, then what argument do you have anyway. You said it, so accept it.

Again you falsely accuse me.

BBob,

 

You have no idea what you say. In the first place all ORB are not the same.
I did say feet washing is an ordinance, called the Communion.

Try to read slowly Tim. You know as well as I know that Wiki... is one man's opinion, usually. I know the man who posted that and he was saying that the Lord's Supper and feet washing are One ordinance.

You are like a man trying to catch a ball with a blind fold on. You are running around and around.



BBob,

 

Lord's supper and feet washing are done on the same day. Together They are the same in our eyes. same ordinance.

 

A Tim read. 1co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Did he say CHRISTAIN? No he said Wicked person.

 

Charles,
Learn to study to show yourself approved unto God,
that you might not be ashamed (and you should be)
that you might rightly divide the word of truth (which you haven't).
Learn to properly exegete a passage of Scripture without taking words or verses out of context.

First learn that two key words are "within" and "without". Those that are within are within the church. A church is composed of baptized believers. Those that are within the church are saved. They are believers. A person cannot be a member of a church unless he is saved.

Those that are without are the unsaved. They are without, or outside of the church, the body of Christ. They are not saved. Having those two facts in mind let us approach the Scriptures.

1. In verse 13, Paul says God judges those that are without the church. He says "What have I to do with those that are without?" (vs.12) Paul has nothing to do here with the unsaved. His concern is only with the believers of the Corinthian Church. He is addressing the problems of the believers, the saved in the church at Corinth.

2. Now look at verse 11 again:

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

The fornicator, covetous, idolater, railer, drunkard, and extortioner, that are all mentioned in verse 11 are either members or potential members of the Corinthian church. Paul labels them as brothers. He accepts their testimonies as those that are called brothers. We have no reason to deny what Paul says are brothers. What he is saying is that these type of people exist in Bible-believing churches. You will come across them. When you do, the church needs to take church discipline against them.

Count them not as an enemy but as a brother, for they are brothers. After following the steps of discipline outlined in Mat.18 seek to restore them to the church. Reconciliation is the aim. We seek that they may repent of the said sin. They never lose their salvation. They only lose their fellowship with God. Salvation is never lost by a believer.

But mark this and mark it well, these drunkards, adulterers, extortioners, etc. are brothers in the Lord, and no one can say otherwise. If you do, you are denying the Word of God.
Paul backs this up elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
--Here were the Corinthians meeting together for fellowship just before they were about to celebrate the Lord's supper. What do we find? The sins of gluttony and drunkeness. There were drunkards at the Lord's Table, and they were saved. There is nothing to say otherwise.

Any Christian can commit any sin given the right circumstances. Don't think that you are so good that you will never commit sin, or certain sins. Even David, a man after God's own heart committed adultery and murder. And you are not a man after God's own heart. Only David, in all of history, was able to claim that title.

 

I was wondering if this was a condition you had to agree with, in your ordination. No harm, honest question due to your beliefs. I wonder the same about Tim.

BTW; David was under the Law Covenant, which was done away that the Grace Covenant might be established. Due to weakness of the flesh, such as adultery and murder and concubines.
We are living in a different time and Covenant.

BBob,

 

Yes you are. I never said any thing about someone committing the act of rape on a child. You got that from the media. Why are twisting things. You have lied. By your own admission you will go to Hell. That is one of the sins unto death is it not? You are caught in your own trap.

Yes, you are. You are making things up that we did not say. You took a specific news event committed by an unbeliever and applied it to a believer. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for doing such a thing and then saying that we said it. You not only lied, but falsely accused us. Sin added unto sin.
What I did say, is that if a believer sins, and has no time to repent of that sin (no matter what the sin may be) he will still go to heaven. I am the one that said all sins are equal in the sight of God.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder, though the consequences may be different.

Do you believe in eternal security? Do you believe in the all sufficiency of the blood of Christ? If the woman fell back into sin after she had trusted Christ would she have gone to heaven? If she was truly saved, yes she would. The blood of Christ covers her sin. The Word of Christ does not lie.

Then Paul lied. Paul counted him a brother, and you disagree with Paul. I agree with the Apostle Paul, not you.

Notice the word “we. Paul was including himself. We are not of them that draw back unto perdition. We are not of them that are the unsaved. He was speaking of the unsaved. He then goes on and says: but rather WE are of them that believe to the saving of the soul. In other words we are not unsaved but saved. The verse is so plain in its meaning, how can you miss it?
He wasn’t talking about Christians, was he?

We have the same scenario as before. You again are not looking at context. Verse 39 Paul says WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition.
Why are you repeating the same verse again? I just explained this. Paul, a saved person will never end up in a place for the unsaved.

At least according to the above post you admit the possibility of lying. So what if you do lie and have a heart attack with no chance of repentance. By your own theology you will find yourself in hell won’t you? That is a fearful way to live Bob. The Lord did not give us a life to live in fear, but in joy and love.

 

No, it is a conclusion that I have come to through my own Bible study.

However, the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, the substitutionary atonement of Christ, those things are in my ordination paper. Salvation is by grace through faith in his blood. In your theology you begin to deny these very essential truths of the sacrifice of Christ.

 

No I don't, I just think God is strong enough to keep us from falling back into perdition.

Please explain the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

BBob,

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Originally Posted by DHK
This is what you made up. No one here admitted it. It is a false accusation on your part. Besides that you took the example from the news where a crime was committed by someone unsaved, not saved. So you are the one being hypocritical, aren't you. Jesus condemned the one being hypocritical as one that will not go to heaven (as tinytim noted), and the sinner as the one that will go to heaven.

There is a post made by you that if a Christian was in the very act of adultery and got hit by lightening, he would go to heaven. So, I am not making it up.


Yes you are. I never said any thing about someone committing the act of rape on a child. You got that from the media. Why are twisting things. You have lied. By your own admission you will go to Hell. That is one of the sins unto death is it not? You are caught in your own trap.
Quote:
You and the others say, a Christian can commit any sin known unto mankind, and you for sure said, even if they don't repent, they still go to Heaven, So, I am not making it up.

Yes, you are. You are making things up that we did not say. You took a specific news event committed by an unbeliever and applied it to a believer. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for doing such a thing and then saying that we said it. You not only lied, but falsely accused us. Sin added unto sin.
What I did say, is that if a believer sins, and has no time to repent of that sin (no matter what the sin may be) he will still go to heaven. I am the one that said all sins are equal in the sight of God.

Does it matter if the adultery is against a child vs a grown person? If there is no difference, where is the lie.

I didn't lie, you have stated several time and now, that you can committ any sin known unto mankind and die in the very act, you would still go to Heaven.

I can pull up the posts if you like.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder, though the consequences may be different.

You have to be guilty first.

Quote:
No, that is what Jesus said. He said that he came to save sinners, not the righteous (not the self-righteous hypocrites). He ministered to the woman caught in adultery. He forgave her without applying the consequence of the Law. The man in 1Cor.5 committed incest and went to heaven. The Word says so. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't change the truth of the Word of God.

The woman was not saved, and He said "go and sin no more". According to your belief, she could sin some more and still go to Heaven.

Do you believe in eternal security? Do you believe in the all sufficiency of the blood of Christ? If the woman fell back into sin after she had trusted Christ would she have gone to heaven? If she was truly saved, yes she would. The blood of Christ covers her sin. The Word of Christ does not lie.

Thats the whole point, if she was saved, She would not fall back into perdition. Paul said we are not of them who draw back into perdition.
Quote:
The man who committed incest, he was not saved either, Paul said to cast him from them. When he really repented and came back, they received him by the door, and so do we.

Then Paul lied. Paul counted him a brother, and you disagree with Paul. I agree with the Apostle Paul, not you.
Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Were these saved also, because they were called brother?

Quote:
There is no such thing. You are making things up that are not in the Bible.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Notice the word “we. Paul was including himself. We are not of them that draw back unto perdition. We are not of them that are the unsaved. He was speaking of the unsaved. He then goes on and says: but rather WE are of them that believe to the saving of the soul. In other words we are not unsaved but saved. The verse is so plain in its meaning, how can you miss it?

So now you are saying Paul was unsaved also?


He wasn’t talking about Christians, was he?
Quote:
Paul wasn't speaking about Christians.

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Yes, he was talking to Christians too.

We have the same scenario as before. You again are not looking at context. Verse 39 Paul says WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition.
Why are you repeating the same verse again? I just explained this. Paul, a saved person will never end up in a place for the unsaved.

Either Paul was saved or he wasn't and he did say "we".
Quote:
I know I would go to heaven. You no doubt would to if you were saved. But you would receive the greater condemnation for your lie of claiming not to sin, and your self-righteousness in doing so. The Bible says: "Let God be true but every man a liar. That includes you.
So, according to your belief and others on here, if I am lying right now, I would still go to Heaven. I just don't believe that, except I repented and accepted to be led by the Spirit of Christ, instead of the devil.

At least according to the above post you admit the possibility of lying. So what if you do lie and have a heart attack with no chance of repentance. By your own theology you will find yourself in hell won’t you? That is a fearful way to live Bob. The Lord did not give us a life to live in fear, but in joy and love.



__________________
DHK

So, if I will admit to lying and capable of committing any sin known unto mankind, then I will be accepted by you and Tim and rbell, is that what you would like me to do and deny my own Saviour?

 

If that is how you word it, then it doesn't seem like you believe in eternal security. Rather you believe you must continually work to keep from falling into perdition.
With those that believe in eternal security, we believe the promise that God is not only able, but has promised that he will never, no matter what happens, allow our salvation to be taken away. He has promised "to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Here is a quote from another thread.

You can read the entire post here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1193073&postcount=223

 

I have read about all of your posts, several times.

You spoke of the atonement and the the sub atonement, so I didn't know what you meant.

 

Since you was wondering :thumbs:

When I was ordained I had to write an ordination paper, and Salvation was one of the topics I had to discuss...
Then when the council was convened, I had to read my paper and answer any questions that might need clarified.. No one asked me any questions on the salvation part... Here is my section on Salvation...

Salvation involves the whole process by which we are taken from being completely useless in the sight of God and on our way to Hell, to being all that God has created us to be.[1] It occurs in three phases. First, the Christian has been saved from the guilt and penalty of Sin (Justification)[2], second, the Christian is being saved from the habit and dominion of sin in his life (Sanctification)[3] and finally, when the Lord returns, we will be saved from all the physical results of sin and of God’s curse on the world (Glorification).[4]
When one admits to God they are a sinner, and turns to God for Salvation[5] through Jesus[6], one is born-again (Regenerated) we are created anew[7]. We are also united with Christ, therefore giving us the right to be justified[8]. Justification is a judicial term. It is the act of God where by we are declared righteous[9]. When we express saving faith, which is the personal appropriation of the work of Jesus Christ and nothing short of total trust in the shedding of Christ‘s blood to take away our sin[10], God adds righteousness and perfection to our record[11]. God is the only source with the power to declare righteousness.[12] Justification does not declare the sinner “not guilty” but “as-not-guilty”. The act does not make one righteous, but declares one to be[13] based upon our union with Christ. We are also adopted, thereby giving us rights as a son of God[14]. We are joint-heirs with Christ[15]. Sanctification is the act of God whereby He sets apart the believer at the point of conversion[16] to preserve[17] and keep us secure through His Spirit[18]. Sanctification is also a progressive work whereby we grow in grace until the point of Glorification[19]. Glorification is the final stage of Salvation whereby we are completely redeemed, and fashioned like unto Jesus’ glorious body[20].
[1] Ephesians 2:5-10
[2] Romans 5:9 ; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ; John 3:17
[3] Romans 6:22
[4] Romans 8:18-23
[5] 2 Corinthians 7:10 ; Acts 2:37-38
[6] Acts 4:12 ; Romans 10:9-10,13
[7] John 3:3 ; 2 Corinthians 5:17 ; Titus 3:5 ; Revelation 1:5
[8] Galatians 2:20 ; Romans 8:1; John 15:5-4
[9] Romans 3:21-30 ; Romans 4:2-9,22 ; Romans 5:1,9-11,16-21
[10] Mark 16:16 ; Acts 4:12 ; Acts 16:31 ; Romans 10:9-10 ; Ephesians 2:8-9 ; 1Peter 1:5 ; Romans 4:1-10
[11] Galatians 3:6 ; Romans 4:3-6,11,22,24 ; 2 Corinthians 5:21 ;

 

And here is my section on sin...
Sin can be defined as:
1) Missing the mark,[1] that is, to deviate from the standard of holiness that God has set;
2) To go beyond the limit of righteousness that is established by God,[2] and
3) To distort what is right for the purpose of ones self.[3]
Pride and selfish desires are at the root of sin.[4] Sin is not only what we do, but what we are.[5] We are sinners.[6] We are not sinners because we sin- we sin because we are sinners-We are born with an inherent tendency to sin.[7]Because of sin we are incompatible with a holy God.[8] Sin has affected, not only, our ability to have a relationship with God,[9] but also, our ability to truly know of him. We have went from a state of intimate knowledge of God to one of depraved knowledge. In other words, at one time we knew God intimately, then we became vain, only to have our hearts darkened, we then became fools, and tried to invent new gods.[10] Because of sin we will reap sin’s wages, death.[11] Furthermore, we in our sinful humanity are condemned to death already.[12]However, Christ died to lift the curse of sin, and the sentence of death from us.[13]
[1] Romans 3:23
[2] 1 John 3:4
[3] Luke 13:27; Matthew 23:28
[4] Isaiah 14:13-14; Gen 3:6; Romans 1:21
[5] Psalm 51:5; 58:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 5:12-21
[6] Romans 3:23
[7] Psalm 51:5; 58:3;
[8] Romans 8:7-8
[9] Romans 1:18
[10] Romans 1:21-23
[11] Romans 6:23
[12] John 3:18
[13] Romans 5:8-9; 6:23

 

Very good paper Tim.

If I read this, I would believe that you believed that a Christian was saved from sin and "kept" by the power of God. I see no where you would return to the sins of perdition in your paper.

[16] to preserve[17] and keep us secure through His Spirit
This is what I been trying to tell you all along, He will preserve you and keep you by His Spirit. If you were keeping yourself, then you would be capable of all those horendeous sins, but you are not your keeper, God is.
I suspect if you had of stated that you were capable of incest, you would not of been ordained.

BBob,

 

Bob, let me state it plainly:
I believe this statement of yours infers a false doctrine that you hold to dearly. It is at the crux of this very issue.
You believe that it is possible for a believer "to fall back into perdition," and thus for a believer to lose his salvation. Thus you deny eternal security. Thus you also deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. This also leads to a religion of works and not by grace through faith.

From our conversations your interpretation of such a statement "falling back into perdition" is not speaking of our standing in Christ, or our sins being forgiven at the time of our salvation, but rather it is speaking of "sins unto death, that we must not by our own power commit. If we do commit such sins we will lose our salvation. We will fall back into perdition. And you will simply say: "Oh, that person was never saved in the first place." That's a terrible condemnation Bob, a condemnation which only God has the right to do. I believe you will have many surprises in heaven. And for "sins unto death," lying is one of them, as Annanias and Sapphira demonstrated.

 

You fail to grasp the whole meaning of what I post, or you do not want to see. If God is keeping you, how could you fall. You are the one who says Christians can fall back into such sins of perdition, I do not believe they can, because God will not allow it.

BBob,

 

This one needed a little clarification. First of all we die naturally because of Adam's sin. Second we die spiritually because of our sins, which brings the second death, not the first. We escape the second death through the blood of Christ who died for our sins and carried them to the cross. Also we will receive deliverance of the body from a corruptlble to an incorruptible, in the resurrection.

He saves us through His Grace through "faith", and He keeps us through that same Grace, we never lose it to fall back into perdition, but press on to the prize of the mark of the high calling.

The paper was good except you needed to clarify the two differents deaths, one is an appointment, the other the wages of our sin and the spiritual death, which leads to LoF, if no repentance.

I am sure questions were asked also by the Presbytery.
BBob,