Salvation and sin

This where you become trapped in your own theology, and that theology becomes blasphemous to say the least.

To say that God does not allow you to sin, is to put the blame on God when you walk away from this board frustrated and perhaps lose your temper (a possiblity.)
If something like that should happen (only an example):
then you have two choices:

1. Blame God for your sin, because:
God does not allow me to sin, therefore because I sinned God it is your fault that I sinned. You do not allow me to sin, therfore it is your fault that I sinned.
That is option one.

2. "God does not allow me to sin." Therefore, God is not able to keep my by his grace, and I will forever be condemned to perdition. Eternal security is a thing of the past. It doesn't work. I have sinned, and God has failed to keep me.

Either way, if you sin, you end up blaming God for your sin, and your religion becomes a religion of works. It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

God is able to do many things. He is able to take us out of this world as soon as we are saved, but He doesn't. He chooses not to. He says that we must wait for the resurrection or the Coming of Christ, or simply death itself. During that time we will sin. There is no doubt about that. Every man, both saved and unsaved will sin. If the believer blames his sin on God, it is blasphemous. And yet that is what you are doing.

 

We do sin, but not sins that causes us to fall back into perdition. Paul said, we are not of those who draw back unto perdition. Adultery and incest are some of those sins.

BBob,

 

Thank you.

I don't think we are too far off... really.

While I do think we are still capable of sinning any sin... I don't think the Spirit will allow us to stay in that sin.

For instance, as I said before, I was saved in 1978... I started drinking in 92, because I became a nominal Christian.. Sunday morning only... and then sometimes just 2 times a month...
It got so bad that I was putting vodka in my orange juice for breakfast... but in all that time I drank.. (about 2 months) I only got drunk one time at a party...

Now according to your belief, I must not have been a Christian from 78 to 92. I don't believe that... I KNOW I knew Christ as my personal savior. Just as strong as I know him now, and I know he knows me.

But all that time I was drinking, I was miserable inside... The Holy Spirit was giving me a beating and a half... but I was being stubborn. Was the Holy Spirit with me the time I got drunk? Yes... Jesus promised never to leave me nor forsake me. And he was there getting my attention, to come back to our close relationship we had before.

Through some circumstances that I now see God orchestrated to move me from where I was, and put me in a place far away from my drinking buddies.. I quit drinking. The Holy Spirit did not allow me to wallow in my sin... but pulled me out of it....

You see, the difference between our theologies comes down to the timing and extent of the Holy Spirit..

You say He works before we sin a sin of perdition...
I say He works to keep us from a lifestyle of perdition...

I believe he lets us fall in order to pick us up, and teach us a lesson.

OH, and BTW, good points on the two levels of death... actually I never thought of it like that before.... I am going to look into what you said.

 

God bless you sir, and I would never question your salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, not me.

BBob,

 

It's pretty cool when we let our brains talk logically and not emotionally...
One day I will learn...

Oh, and I would never doubt your salvation either... Let's agree that when we get to Heaven the one question both of us ask our Lord is which one is right!!!!... my luck he will tell us we both were wrong!

Oh well, you have a blessed Sunday.

 

You have a good Sunday also. I will sing a special song for you when I get up to preach. Called "Thank you Lord".

BBob,

 

Admission of guilt is good.

1. There is no such thing as a sin unto perdition as pertaining to a believer. If there is then you don't believe in eternal security and deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
2. The only sin of perdition (that is the only sin that will send one to Hell) is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. That is the only thing that can put a person in Hell--rejection of Christ as the Son of God. No other sin can do that.
3. You have never given any list of so-called sins of perdition anyway. It doesn't exist. There is no such thing. You can't come up with one. You just mock people instead.

In other words Paul was saying that he is saved. That is all that he meant. He wasn't going to hell. He is saved. Is that so hard to understand? He would not go to perdition (Hell) --no so hard to understand in the light of the fact that he taught eternal security.

Not true. The only sin that can cause one to go to hell (perdition) is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. Any other theology is a theology of works, and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

 

Encouragement among the brotherhood of the Church of Jesus Christ now that is what I call a Church and that my friends is a beautiful sight. Lift up your hands to the Christ who has set us free from the awful chains of sin! Praise Him, Praise Him on high forever more!

 

Is this language needed? This does not edify or teach. DHK you should be ashamed of yourself a Moderator nonetheless. Lets build up not slam down. Now go to your corner and do not come out until you are ready to apologize.

 

When you quote that statement without the rest of the quote it sounds terrible. When you read it with the rest of what I said, then you understand why I said what I said. Before jumping in the middle of a conversation, perhaps you should go and start at the beginning of the thread and see what has been previously said on both sides of the issue, and then you can make a fair judgement.

 

I happen to agree with Brother Bob. God is able to keep us from falling. But I do not have time to get into detail tonight. I'll have to take it up with you in the morning. Blasphemous is still a strong word to have used. Good night DHK and may God bless.

 

Love you DHK. God bless you.

 

God bless you also Charles

 

From earth's point of view, this is true. God does not prescribe the same punishment for stealing as He does for murder or adultery.

From Heaven's point of view this is true, but it's important to understand why. The law is a reflection of the character and will of God Himself. God is love, and love is the fulfillment of the law. To be guilty in only one point (from earth's point of view) betrays self-love, and self-love (or covetousness) is at the root of all sin and trespass.

When the Rich Young Ruler asserted his self-righteousness assuming that he had kept all the commandments from his youth up, Christ illuminated the fact that he wasn't keeping the law at all by commanding him to sell all he had and to give to the poor and lay up treasure in Heaven. The young man went away sorrowful because he had great possessions and coveted them.

That's right. Christ was not commanding a "higher standard of morality" beside the law in Matt. 5. He was simply re-establishing the high and lofty principles that were lost through centuries of rabbincal tradition. The Pharisees were not zealous for the law in its true sense (or they would have accepted Christ), they were zealous for the law as corrupted by them of old time. It was they who said it was lawful to hate one's enemy, to retaliate for personal offenses, to issue divorces and desire other women, and to harbor bitterness and anger against another.

The last should be the first, though I would not marginalize the hallowed and proper fear of calamity.

It's the only way. Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

That's right, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No one walking by grace transgresses the law.

Good post, MB :thumbs:

 

As far as the list, God takes care of that. I have listed some and you can't even get around them, why confuse you anymore?

You indicate you already know the list, here you say: DHK: And for "sins unto death," lying is one of them.

Then you say: lying is one but Adultery and incest are not.

Not true. The only sin that can cause one to go to hell (perdition) is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. Any other theology is a theology of works, and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
__________________
DHK



Here you Post the scripture of "draw back unto perdition", first as being the unsaved, then the saved. How can anyone follow you, if you don't know which way you believe.

Post #97
BBob; for Paul said we are not of them who draw back unto perdition.

DHK; Paul wasn't speaking about Christians.


Post #147
Bbob: Paul said, we are not of those who draw back unto perdition.

DHK: In other words Paul was saying that he is saved. That is all that he meant. He wasn't going to hell. He is saved. Is that so hard to understand? He would not go to perdition (Hell) --no so hard to understand in the light of the fact that he taught eternal security

In Post #97 you said Paul was speaking of non-Christians.
then:
In Post # 147 you say that Paul was speaking of Himself being saved.
You need to make up your mind.

Hebrew 10:
[26] For if we sin wilfully (you said that it is we who choose to sin) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
[32] But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33] Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
[34] For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35] Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
[36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[37] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I am the one saying that Paul was saying a Christian can not draw back into perdition, for we are kept by the power of God.

You are the one saying a Christian can commit Incest, Adultery, liar and any sin known unto mankind, which would be drawing back into perdition, that we are not kept by the power of God but that we keep ourselves, or it don't matter how we live.

BBob,

 

First concerning the Apostles, the blood had not been shed then. They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus dwelling within them. They were still waiting on the blood, that is when He conquered over death, hell and the grave.

Hebrew 6:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Act 8:19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Scripture says otherwise.


Mind you, I don't believe they could fall, I believe the passage is telling us how impossible it is to fall.

Please give scripture where the world were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

BBob,

Sorry double post

 

OK, enough of the love fest... back to debating!!! lol


I'm right... .Bob is wrong...period... end of debate!!!

OK, OK,

Seriously.. I am tired of debating this subject..
I think we are really arguing over each other, and in the end, God knows who is his, and they will never escape God...

Now how he keeps them is up to him. It is not up to Bob... It is not up to Me, or Charles, or DHK, or rbell, or anyone else that contributed to this thread.

I am saved... I know I am... and if God will keep me from sin... PRAISE GOD!!!
If he has to teach me a lesson... PRAISE GOD!!!

It is all about HIM anyway. Not a thing about me...
It is all about his Grace, and forgiveness...

HEY, I deserve to be in HELL right NOW!! But because Christ died for me, my life is spared, and I now have eternal life...

So, I just want to praise him... no matter how he keeps me... I know he will!

OK, I am done debating this subject... I may stick my nose in everyonce in a while over something... but all in all, you all know where I stand, you know where Bob stands, and God is probably shaking his head at both of us sayin, "Can't Bob just agree with tiny"...


uh... I mean, "Look at those two children of mine!!! One of these days I'm going to have to have a long talk with them" (IN his Jed Clampett voice)


OH MAN, I just had a scary thought what if when we get to Heaven, Jesus looks like Jethro!!!

 

You are very condescending aren't you? I am not the one that is confused. I am not the one that cannot provide a list. I have rbell and tinytim to testify to that fact. You cannot, have not, produced a list of what you call "sins unto death," have you? Don't lie about it? Millions of people will read your testimony on this board, and it will be forever recorded in cyberspace for all to see, so be careful what you say.
According to your own theology a sin unto death will send a person to hell, and if you write a lie here and die of a heart attack suddenly you have no hope of heaven (if God considers that a sin unto death according to your definition). Am I correct?

But here is the problem Bob. Half the time we speak past each other. You say that a sin unto death is a sin that leads to a spiritual death, that is eternal death or Hell. I disagree.
Your definition is wrong. The sin unto death refers to a physical death. Annanias died a physical death because they lied to the Holy Spirit. God killed them. The story is in Acts 5. It was a sin unto death, and they died.

The only sin that can send a person to Hell is rejection of Christ as Saviour.
The only sin "of perdition" is rejecting Christ as Saviour.
If you understand those facts then you won't be confused with anything else that I say.

I don't know your list. You have never provided one, and neither does the Bible. Your definition of a sin unto death differs from the Biblical definition.
I said lying is a sin unto death because Biblically it was a sin that caused the death of Annanias and Sapphira. Any sin can cause death. God can bring the judgement of death on a believer for any sin that that believer may be caught up in. If such a one may be bringing disgrace upon the name of the Lord, God may take him out of this world. That would be a sin unto death--a sin that results in the physical death of the believer.

The only sin that causes one to go to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour and that never applies to a believer.

They are not sins unto death according to your definition; they cannot send a person to hell. Only the rejection of Jesus Christ can send a person to hell.
OTOH, lying is just as great a sin as rape, adultery and incest. The consequence may be different, but in God's sight the sin is the same--it is a transgression of God's law and that is all.

BTW, what was so terrible about the sin of Lord Conrad Black that he had to go to jail?
He never murdered, raped, committed adultery, incests, or any immoral act whatsoever? Why do you think he is spending years in jail?
What terrible, terrible crime has he committed?
If you want to put it very simple, his crime was one lie upon another, upon another. It was simply lies and lies. He has gone to jail for lying. (That is my simplified version.)

Not true. The only sin that can cause one to go to hell (perdition) is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. Any other theology is a theology of works, and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

I know very clearly what I believe, Bob. You are the one that is confused; very confused. I have already explained the verse more than once for you, but you still remain confused. So let's try again.

Hebrews 10:37-39 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
--The imminent return of Christ is near. He will not tarry. He is coming soon.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
--The just shall live by faith (written to Christians)
--"If any draw back (those that are unsaved). This is a warning to the unsaved. The book is written to the "Hebrews," among which were unsaved Hebrews looking to return to Judaism. It is full of warnings to these unsaved Hebrews not to return to Judaism, but rather to embrace Christianity. That is why there is a comparison of the two systems all the way through the book.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
--But we are not of them who.. Paul is not of them who will perish. He is saved. This part is speaking of the saved of course. "But of them that believe." He is one of those that believe. This verse especially is speaking of those that believe. The believers do not, cannot lose their salvation. So why even try to use this verse? You can't. It doesn't do anything for your case, but defeats it.

In the previous verse he wasn't speaking about Christians as I pointed out to you. You seem to have a knack for confusing things. But we'll get you straightened out yet.

As I previously said my mind was made up. Paul declared himself to be saved in verse 39. In verse 38 he refers to a class of people (Jews) that are not saved. There are two groups of people in the passage. Don't get them confused. I have already explained the passage.

A Christian will not go to hell because he has eternal life. Eternal can never become temporary. Eternal life is a gift that God will never take away. "Perdition" is the wrong word to use. It is ambiguous.

Bob, What is perdition?!
No doubt you have told a lie already on some of these posts. As one murder makes one a murderer; one lie makes one a liar. Thus you have drawn back into perdition. What does that mean? Does it mean you are now in Hell? Or does it mean you have no chance of heaven? What does it mean?

The only thing that can send a person to hell or perdition is rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Adulutery, lying, or other sins cannot put a person into Hell. Can you demonstrate that through the Bible?

Demonstrate through Scripture where God has promised to keep any believer from sin. There is no such promise. In fact the opposite is true.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Brother Bob,

I am just now reading "Five View of Sanctification." Are you taking the Wesleyan view of "entire sanctification" or some version thereof?

The view is flawed on various levels but I don't want to get ahead of what you are thinking on this.

skypair