Salvation and sin

[Brother Bob]

You are very condescending aren't you? I am not the one that is confused. I am not the one that cannot provide a list. I have rbell and tinytim to testify to that fact. You cannot, have not, produced a list of what you call "sins unto death," have you? Don't lie about it? Millions of people will read your testimony on this board, and it will be forever recorded in cyberspace for all to see, so be careful what you say.
According to your own theology a sin unto death will send a person to hell, and if you write a lie here and die of a heart attack suddenly you have no hope of heaven (if God considers that a sin unto death according to your definition). Am I correct?

But here is the problem Bob. Half the time we speak past each other. You say that a sin unto death is a sin that leads to a spiritual death, that is eternal death or Hell. I disagree.
Your definition is wrong. The sin unto death refers to a physical death. Annanias died a physical death because they lied to the Holy Spirit. God killed them. The story is in Acts 5. It was a sin unto death, and they died.

The only sin that can send a person to Hell is rejection of Christ as Saviour.
The only sin "of perdition" is rejecting Christ as Saviour.
If you understand those facts then you won't be confused with anything else that I say.

I don't know your list. You have never provided one, and neither does the Bible. Your definition of a sin unto death differs from the Biblical definition.
I said lying is a sin unto death because Biblically it was a sin that caused the death of Annanias and Sapphira. Any sin can cause death. God can bring the judgement of death on a believer for any sin that that believer may be caught up in. If such a one may be bringing disgrace upon the name of the Lord, God may take him out of this world. That would be a sin unto death--a sin that results in the physical death of the believer.

The only sin that causes one to go to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour and that never applies to a believer.

They are not sins unto death according to your definition; they cannot send a person to hell. Only the rejection of Jesus Christ can send a person to hell.
OTOH, lying is just as great a sin as rape, adultery and incest. The consequence may be different, but in God's sight the sin is the same--it is a transgression of God's law and that is all.

BTW, what was so terrible about the sin of Lord Conrad Black that he had to go to jail?
He never murdered, raped, committed adultery, incests, or any immoral act whatsoever? Why do you think he is spending years in jail?
What terrible, terrible crime has he committed?
If you want to put it very simple, his crime was one lie upon another, upon another. It was simply lies and lies. He has gone to jail for lying. (That is my simplified version.)

Not true. The only sin that can cause one to go to hell (perdition) is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. Any other theology is a theology of works, and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

I know very clearly what I believe, Bob. You are the one that is confused; very confused. I have already explained the verse more than once for you, but you still remain confused. So let's try again.

Hebrews 10:37-39 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
--The imminent return of Christ is near. He will not tarry. He is coming soon.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
--The just shall live by faith (written to Christians)
--"If any draw back (those that are unsaved). This is a warning to the unsaved. The book is written to the "Hebrews," among which were unsaved Hebrews looking to return to Judaism. It is full of warnings to these unsaved Hebrews not to return to Judaism, but rather to embrace Christianity. That is why there is a comparison of the two systems all the way through the book.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
--But we are not of them who.. Paul is not of them who will perish. He is saved. This part is speaking of the saved of course. "But of them that believe." He is one of those that believe. This verse especially is speaking of those that believe. The believers do not, cannot lose their salvation. So why even try to use this verse? You can't. It doesn't do anything for your case, but defeats it.

In the previous verse he wasn't speaking about Christians as I pointed out to you. You seem to have a knack for confusing things. But we'll get you straightened out yet.

As I previously said my mind was made up. Paul declared himself to be saved in verse 39. In verse 38 he refers to a class of people (Jews) that are not saved. There are two groups of people in the passage. Don't get them confused. I have already explained the passage.

A Christian will not go to hell because he has eternal life. Eternal can never become temporary. Eternal life is a gift that God will never take away. "Perdition" is the wrong word to use. It is ambiguous.

Bob, What is perdition?!
No doubt you have told a lie already on some of these posts. As one murder makes one a murderer; one lie makes one a liar. Thus you have drawn back into perdition. What does that mean? Does it mean you are now in Hell? Or does it mean you have no chance of heaven? What does it mean?

The only thing that can send a person to hell or perdition is rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Adulutery, lying, or other sins cannot put a person into Hell. Can you demonstrate that through the Bible?

Demonstrate through Scripture where God has promised to keep any believer from sin. There is no such promise. In fact the opposite is true.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You gave part of the List, or at least you said it was a sin unto death. So, that tells you do believe in a list.

Anyone can go read your posts and see that you keep changing. You keep saying the same old thing over and over, which is not the truth. Wonder what Jesus meant when He said the words I speak shall judge you in the last day.

Adam brought death upon all mankind. It is an appointment.

We bring the spiritual death by sinning.

You bring nothing new to the thread DHK; You get caught in a lie and then lie to get out of it.

That is the trouble with lying. If you tell one lie, you will always have to tell another to get out of it.

Post #97 Page 10
BBob; for Paul said we are not of them who draw back unto perdition.
DHK; Paul wasn't speaking about Christians.

Why not just admit you messed up, instead of telling another false.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

I am just now reading "Five View of Sanctification." Are you taking the Wesleyan view of "entire sanctification" or some version thereof?

The view is flawed on various levels but I don't want to get ahead of what you are thinking on this.

skypair

I agree with Wesley on a Christian should get closer to God and grow in Grace.
Wesley seems to be talking as if there in not an outward man and an inward man, or at least I can't see where he did.
I believe at the "new birth" the inward man is sanctified and made whole in Christ, but outwardly we will not be completly sanctified in this life, because we can't escape some kind of sin and God didn't make it where we could. I think we do certain sins and that is what keeps us in prayer always. I think we have a desire to be perfect and work towards it, but will have to wait until the change comes to the fleshly part of a man in the resurrection. Wesley seems to be saying that we can achieve entire sanctification, but then goes on to say we can't escape sin.
I believe if we were completely sanctified, then we would be without sin entirely, of which I don't believe.

Let me put it this way. I believe the inward part of a man, is what is born again and already cleansed up, but in bondage to a outward man (fleshly), who does sin, but not the kind of sins that bring spritual death. I believe it is the type of sins that Jesus is our advocate and also has the chastement rod, that we be not condemned with the world.

I hope I have made it plain how I believe. I just do not believe, nor will I ever accept, that a Christian is capable of any sin, known unto mankind. For Jesus said, though you are in the world, I have chosen you out of the world.

There is a difference between the church and the world. It is a visible difference too. You are the light of the world, a City set on a hill that cannot be hid.

I believe if you can't see a difference in the lifestyle of a person, who says they are saved. Something is just not right.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You gave part of the List, or at least you said it was a sin unto death. So, that tells you do believe in a list.

Bob, I gave an example of some sins listed in the Bible.
The Bible says that if you keep the whole law and yet in offend in one point you are guilty of breaking the entire law (James 2:10). In other words it is just as bad to tell a small little white law as it is to commit murder or pedophilia. All sin is a transgression against the law of God (1John 3:4). That is God's definition, not mine. When David committed both murder and adultery he confessed before God: "Against thee and thee alone have I sinned." Why? Because he had transgressed the law of God. He had offended a holy God. Sin is first and foremost against God, in spite of its effects and consequences upon one's fellow man. You need to have a good grasp of what sin is.
Sin is a transgression of God's law. It is falling short of His glory. It is missing the standard that He has set for us (Romans 3:23). That is why losing one's temper, becoming angry, telling a lie, is just as bad as rape.
BTW, Jesus never lost his temper. He always had his emotions under control. He knew exactly what he was doing. He never "lost his cool."

Anyone can go read your posts and see that you keep changing. You keep saying the same old thing over and over, which is not the truth. Wonder what Jesus meant when He said the words I speak shall judge you in the last day.

No, I am consistent in my posts. The confusing thing here is you making up things that don't exist and changing definitions of Bible terminology to fit your own theology which is unbiblical. I pointed that out to you in my last post. But you have no answer for it.

Adam brought death upon all mankind. It is an appointment.

We bring the spiritual death by sinning.

We sin because we have a sin nature. That is true. But we also sin because we want to sin. Both are true. You choose to sin. David chose to sin. According to Romans 7, Paul chose to sin. It was a battle for him not to sin. He had to continually put his body to death in order not to sin. John said, they that say, "they do not sin," do not have the truth in them and make Jesus Christ a liar. Are you in that group??

You bring nothing new to the thread DHK; You get caught in a lie and then lie to get out of it.

Can you prove that?

That is the trouble with lying. If you tell one lie, you will always have to tell another to get out of it.

Practice what you preach. I am not the one with an inconsistent position. You talk of sins unto death leading to perdition, but you can't produce a list of sins that do so. That leaves you an escape route that judges other people of going to Hell but at the same time you can self-righteously judge yourself as being innocent when you have sinned. That is your lie.

Why not just admit you messed up, instead of telling another false.
BBob,

Regarding #post 97 I admit that it was ambiguos, and should have been better stated as not to cause confusion. In that I admit I messed up.
Here is the intent of what I wanted to say:

BB--"for Paul said we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. "
DHK "Paul wasn't speaking about Christians."

I should have said: "Paul wasn't speaking about Christians when he was referring to those "who draw back unto perdition." It is evident that he was referring to himself as a Christian, but those that draw back unto perdition are not Christians as is evident from verse 38.
(Does that clear up my post Bob? You don't have to bring it up again now).

Now look at why you haven't come up with a list of sins unto death or unto perdition. It is because you constantly change. At one point you won't include lying and at another point you do. At one point lying will cause you to go to Hell and at another point it won't. You are so contradictary in your beliefs.

#142

We do sin, but not sins that causes us to fall back into perdition. Paul said, we are not of those who draw back unto perdition. Adultery and incest are some of those sins.
BBob,

Here is an admission of sin; where as previously you stated that you did not sin. But, as you state "it is not those sins that cause us to fall back into perdition."
You fail to tell us what those sins are Bob, and you won't.
Is lying one of them?
I can go back and show you where you have lied.

#132

I never said any thing about someone committing the act of rape on a child. You got that from the media. Why are twisting things. You have lied. By your own admission you will go to Hell. That is one of the sins unto death is it not? You are caught in your own trap.
Quote:
You and the others say, a Christian can commit any sin known unto mankind, and you for sure said, even if they don't repent, they still go to Heaven, So, I am not making it up.

Here is a lie in itself. You accused those on the board of saying something about "raping a child," when in fact no one but yourself brought up that issue. That is deceit; a lie. Then you tried to justify it.

#132

So, according to your belief and others on here, if I am lying right now, I would still go to Heaven. I just don't believe that, except I repented and accepted to be led by the Spirit of Christ, instead of the devil.

This theology takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ which you seem to deny. Is not the blood of Christ sufficient enough to cover that sin of lying. Or must you do the work of "repentance" all over again to help Christ out in his atonement for sin. That falls under the definition of blasphemy. If you don't believe me look the word "blasphemy" up in the dictionary.

#139

You fail to grasp the whole meaning of what I post, or you do not want to see. If God is keeping you, how could you fall. You are the one who says Christians can fall back into such sins of perdition, I do not believe they can, because God will not allow it.
BBob,

Here you blame God for your sin. God allowed it; therefore you commit it.

Your logic is that if God allows sin then it is alright to sin.

But in reality God allows many things, including free choice--the freedom to choose Christ or to reject him; the freedom to sin or not to sin. He has never promised to keep you from sin. There is no such promise in the Bible. Only the opposite is true.


If any man say he has no sin the truth is not in him.

 

[DHK]

The Catholic Church has always defined "The Seven Deadly Sins." I wonder if they got it from the Bible "sin unto death." Just a thought. But they have updated those seven Deadly Sins just today. Here is a partial quote:

Polluting the environment, and becoming ridiculously wealthy while doing so, are two of the new deadly sins unveiled by the Vatican.

So if any of you are not recycling those plastic bags, tin cans, etc. and are thereby polluting your environment you have just committed a mortal sin, a sin unto death, which according to Catholic theology will send you straight to hell (if unconfessed to a priest). There is no chance for purgatory on this one.

Here is the entire article:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/10/deadly-sins.html

 

[Palatka51]

The Catholic Church has always defined "The Seven Deadly Sins." I wonder if they got it from the Bible "sin unto death." Just a thought. But they have updated those seven Deadly Sins just today. Here is a partial quote:

So if any of you are not recycling those plastic bags, tin cans, etc. and are thereby polluting your environment you have just committed a mortal sin, a sin unto death, which according to Catholic theology will send you straight to hell (if unconfessed to a priest). There is no chance for purgatory on this one.

Here is the entire article:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/10/deadly-sins.html

Makes you just want to

give it all up. I am so glad that I am under grace.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, I gave an example of some sins listed in the Bible.

You called them "sin unto death".

The Bible says that if you keep the whole law and yet in offend in one point you are guilty of breaking the entire law (James 2:10). In other words it is just as bad to tell a small little white law as it is to commit murder or pedophilia. All sin is a transgression against the law of God (1John 3:4). That is God's definition, not mine. When David committed both murder and adultery he confessed before God: "Against thee and thee alone have I sinned." Why? Because he had transgressed the law of God. He had offended a holy God. Sin is first and foremost against God, in spite of its effects and consequences upon one's fellow man. You need to have a good grasp of what sin is.
Sin is a transgression of God's law. It is falling short of His glory. It is missing the standard that He has set for us (Romans 3:23). That is why losing one's temper, becoming angry, telling a lie, is just as bad as rape.
BTW, Jesus never lost his temper. He always had his emotions under control. He knew exactly what he was doing. He never "lost his cool."

David worshipped God in the flesh, we worship in spirit and truth. Big difference

No, I am consistent in my posts. The confusing thing here is you making up things that don't exist and changing definitions of Bible terminology to fit your own theology which is unbiblical. I pointed that out to you in my last post. But you have no answer for it.

I don't have an answer to fit your theology, for there is none.

We sin because we have a sin nature. That is true. But we also sin because we want to sin. Both are true. You choose to sin. David chose to sin. According to Romans 7, Paul chose to sin. It was a battle for him not to sin. He had to continually put his body to death in order not to sin. John said, they that say "they do not sin," do not have the truth in them and make Jesus Christ a liar. Are you in that group??

Glad you put, not to sin.

Can you prove that?

You stated you messed up, so I will take that one back.

Practice what you preach. I am not the one with an inconsistent position. You talk of sins unto death leading to perdition, but you can't produce a list of sins that do so. That leaves you an escape route that judges other people of going to Hell but at the same time you can self-righteously judge yourself as being innocent when you have sinned. That is your lie.

Can you prove I said I had never sinned?

Regarding #post 97 I admit that it was ambiguos, and should have been better stated as not to cause confusion. In that I admit I messed up.
Here is the intent of what I wanted to say:
BB--"for Paul said we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. "
DHK "Paul wasn't speaking about Christians."
I should have said: "Paul wasn't speaking about Christians when he was referring to those "who draw back unto perdition." It is evident that he was referring to himself as a Christian, but those that draw back unto perdition are not Christians as is evident from verse 38.
(Does that clear up my post Bob? You don't have to bring it up again now).

Now look at why you haven't come up with a list of sins unto death or unto perdition. It is because you constantly change. At one point you won't include lying and at another point you do. At one point lying will cause you to go to Hell and at another point it won't. You are so contradictary in your beliefs.

I have never changed that I know of, Prove it.

Here is an admission of sin; where as previously you stated that you did not sin. But, as you state "it is not those sins that cause us to fall back into perdition."
You fail to tell us what those sins are Bob, and you won't.
Is lying one of them?
I can go back and show you where you have lied.

Please do.

[/color]
Here is a lie in itself. You accused those on the board of saying something about "raping a child," when in fact no one but yourself brought up that issue. That is deceit; a lie. Then you tried to justify it.

That is false. I ask a question using that example. Never accused anyone on here of raping a 4 year old. That is a lie.

This theology takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ which you seem to deny. Is not the blood of Christ sufficient enough to cover that sin of lying. Or must you do the work of "repentance" all over again to help Christ out in his atonement for sin. That falls under the definition of blasphemy. If you don't believe me look the word "blasphemy" up in the dictionary.

I take nothing away, it is you that says God is not able to keep His children and the blood will allow them to commit any sin known unto mankind and still go to Heaven. I say that God is strong enough to keep His children from falling back into perdition.

Here you blame God for your sin. God allowed it; therefore you commit it.

I thank I stated if God did not allow it to happen, then it is impossible to sin.

Your logic is that if God allows sin then it is alright to sin.
But in reality God allows many things, including free choice--the freedom to choose Christ or to reject him; the freedom to sin or not to sin. He has never promised to keep you from sin. There is no such promise in the Bible. Only the opposite is true.
If any man say he has no sin the truth is not in him.

He that is born of God cannot sin, what you do with that one DHK;

Or My Grace is sufficient for thee.

BBob,

 

[Outsider]

I have a question.
Are we sure that the "Sin unto death" (spoke in 1 John) is a spritual death?

I think we all agree (Because of scripture) that once God saves you, you are saved. There is no falling out of the grip of the Lord.

Could it be that the "Sin unto death" is a physical death and not a spiritual death? If we read in 1 Cor 11:27-32, Paul tells us when we take communion, to "Examine ourselves" (28). Then he states:
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
When we take communion, we always stress to examine ourselves. This is for us to really know and understand exactly what Christ done for us. This is something not to be taken lightly. This is not saying that these people where not Christians, it is saying that (Whatever they were, Christian or not) they took communion lightly.

The only spiritual death sin I have been able to find is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I simply see this as rejecting God's grace through unbelief. This would indicate that the person was never a Christian because they never received the Holy Ghost.

Everybody likes to bring up the sin that David comitted. His child died because of it. All the prayers was not going to change it. It was a "Sin unto death". It caused the death of his child. We also see Ananias and Sapphira, when they lied to the appostles (And God), it caused a natural death. The Bible does not specify if they were converted Christians or not. But here we see natural death being caused by sin. One sin was Adultry and the other was a lie.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Brother Bob]

I have a question.
Are we sure that the "Sin unto death" (spoke in 1 John) is a spritual death?

I think we all agree (Because of scripture) that once God saves you, you are saved. There is no falling out of the grip of the Lord.

Could it be that the "Sin unto death" is a physical death and not a spiritual death? If we read in 1 Cor 11:27-32, Paul tells us when we take communion, to "Examine ourselves" (28). Then he states:
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
When we take communion, we always stress to examine ourselves. This is for us to really know and understand exactly what Christ done for us. This is something not to be taken lightly. This is not saying that these people where not Christians, it is saying that (Whatever they were, Christian or not) they took communion lightly.

The only spiritual death sin I have been able to find is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I simply see this as rejecting God's grace through unbelief. This would indicate that the person was never a Christian because they never received the Holy Ghost.

Everybody likes to bring up the sin that David comitted. His child died because of it. All the prayers was not going to change it. It was a "Sin unto death". It caused the death of his child. We also see Ananias and Sapphira, when they lied to the appostles (And God), it caused a natural death. The Bible does not specify if they were converted Christians or not. But here we see natural death being caused by sin. One sin was Adultry and the other was a lie.

What are your thoughts?

It is plain the following were not physically dead, but they were dead, in sins (plural)

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him


To die in Christ is gain, do you mean they are rewarded?

BBob,

 

[charles_creech78]

It is plain the following were not physically dead, but they were dead, in sins (plural)

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him


To die in Christ is gain, do you mean they are rewarded?

BBob,

Amen brother Bob.

 

[Outsider]

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Paul is speaking to those that are Christians. They were once unsaved. They were dead in their trespasses and sins. Like we all are before we become a Christian.

Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Speaking of the same thing. Before they were Christians.

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

This was a scribe that was boasting that he would follow Christ everywhere, but before he started, he wanted to do something. Christ was telling him that if he wanted to follow Him, he has to forsake all. This was not one of Christs followers.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

This is saying that because a Father sins, it will not be a curse to the son. The "Soul" in this text, is a person not the eternal soul of a person. This actually is a proof text for what I was saying. The scripture is saying that the person that keeps the law shall live and the one that breaks the law shall die. This has to be physical life and death. There was no eternal life at that time. We also know that there is no life in the law.

Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
To die in Christ is gain, do you mean they are rewarded?

All that have been born again have received the gift of eternal life. But to look at it like that would mean you are saying that those that live in this life and say they commit no sin are being punished for living a long natural life. Surely you do not view a long life as punishment, do you?

Those that have been born again are God's children. He disciplines us how He sees fit. We belong to Him. If He wishes to punish us by removing us from this world, He certainly has the right. If time lasts long enough, we will all die naturally. But we all have a job to do and if we are unable to perform that job (Witness to the lost or glorify God), maybe He removes that gift and gives to another. Maybe He removes you from this life entirely.

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul is speaking to those that are Christians. They were once unsaved. They were dead in their trespasses and sins. Like we all are before we become a Christian.

Well, I agree but they were dead spiritual, certainly not physically.

Speaking of the same thing. Before they were Christians.

same.

This was a scribe that was boasting that he would follow Christ everywhere, but before he started, he wanted to do something. Christ was telling him that if he wanted to follow Him, he has to forsake all. This was not one of Christs followers.

Dead bury their dead, is speaking of two types of death. The father was physically dead and the others were spiritually dead.

This is saying that because a Father sins, it will not be a curse to the son. The "Soul" in this text, is a person not the eternal soul of a person. This actually is a proof text for what I was saying. The scripture is saying that the person that keeps the law shall live and the one that breaks the law shall die. This has to be physical life and death. There was no eternal life at that time. We also know that there is no life in the law.

Do you believe in the age of accountability? We come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, we die spiritually.

All that have been born again have received the gift of eternal life. But to look at it like that would mean you are saying that those that live in this life and say they commit no sin are being punished for living a long natural life. Surely you do not view a long life as punishment, do you?

No, I believe a long life is good and blessed, I also believe to "die in Christ is gain". The natural death is an appointment, if God moves the appointment up, a Christian will be better off, again to be with Christ is far better, according to scripture.

Those that have been born again are God's children. He disciplines us how He sees fit. We belong to Him. If He wishes to punish us by removing us from this world, He certainly has the right. If time lasts long enough, we will all die naturally. But we all have a job to do and if we are unable to perform that job (Witness to the lost or glorify God), maybe He removes that gift and gives to another. Maybe He removes you from this life entirely.

Apparently you believe to die in Christ is a punishment in some cases. I don't. My father died at the age of 42 as a Christian, do I think it was a punishment. NO! People die when they are little children, is it a punishment, NO! Young people die in car wrecks, do I think it is a punishment of God, NO!


BBob,

..........

 

[Outsider]

Apparently you believe to die in Christ is a punishment in some cases. I don't.

Now Bob, If you hold to that, then be fair. That means to live a long life has to be punishment.
I am not saying any of that. I am saying that there is tremendous joy in serving God. I enjoy it. If a Christian dies young or old, they are to enjoy their salvation. Those that God removes from this life, I am a firm believer that it is because their work on this earth is finished.

Do you believe in the age of accountability? We come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, we die spiritually.

I do believe in the age of accountability. This was my point in the scripture you quoted. We all died that spiritual death at this age. But when God born us again, we became an alive spirit. So when you quoted "And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;" That is what I was referring to.
They were spiritually dead. But now they are spiritually alive for all eternity. So if there is a "Sin unto death", it can't be a spiritual death. It can only be a natural death.

 

[Outsider]

Apparently you believe to die in Christ is a punishment in some cases. I don't. My father died at the age of 42 as a Christian, do I think it was a punishment. NO! People die when they are little children, is it a punishment, NO! Young people die in car wrecks, do I think it is a punishment of God, NO!

I am not saying that at all brother Bob. We all die in different situations at different ages. Just because someone dies does not mean that they are a Christian that have "Sinned unto death".
As I said, His work for us in this life is finished.

 

[tinytim]

I do believe that physical death can be a punishment, and I also believe that the sin unto death is a physical death...

Honor thy father and mother... why? So your days will be long upon the earth.. here a commandment is linked with physical life/death.

My dad had stayed out of church for a while, and the pastor came to visit him.. the first thing our pastor asked him was, "What do you want preached at your funeral"

God will not leave a disobedient child of his here to embarrass HIM. He will take him home first...

Good exegesis Outsider, your take on Bob's prooftexts were exactly what I was thinking, and getting ready to post.

 

[Brother Bob]

We are talking of Christians and:

Whether I live or whether I die, let it be in the Lord. Amen,

Long life can be a curse also. How many old people you saw in nursing homes in a coma, with their mouth open and can't die. Does this mean that a long life can be a punishment of God also?

If you die in the Lord it is gain, for to be with Christ it is far better. The ones who get punished are the ones left behind to mourn.

BBob,

 

[Outsider]

Tinytim,

Thanks :thumbs:

Now what does exegesis mean? :BangHead:

 

[Outsider]

Brother Bob,

The ones who are punished are those that die without the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am not saying that at all brother Bob. We all die in different situations at different ages. Just because someone dies does not mean that they are a Christian that have "Sinned unto death".
As I said, His work for us in this life is finished.

I think you misunderstand me. I am trying to prove to these other posters, that the "saved" do not sin unto death. I do not believe in a fall and all these scripture being used are to show us how impossible it is to fall.

I have never believed that a Christian can commit such an act, that has been my argument all along. Some believe if the "saved" do commit such an act, that God might punish them with physical death, when such an act brings spiritual death, not physical. If you believe God can stop you after you commit the act, why not go a little farther and believe the same God, can keep you from such an act.


BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

The ones who are punished are those that die without the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

They will be punished that is for sure and their soul is in punishment now. As far as them dying, that is because of an appointment because Adam sinned.

BBob,

 

[Outsider]

Some believe if the "saved" do commit such an act, that God might punish them with physical death, when such an act brings spiritual death, not physical.

I understand what you are saying brother Bob. But my entire point is that once God borns you again, you are spiritually alive and spiritual death is no longer an option because you are kept by God.

If you believe God can stop you after you commit the act, why not go a little farther and believe the same God, can keep you from such an act.

I do believe God can keep Christians from sinning. Any and all sin. He has that ability and one day He promissed us all that we won't sin, ever again.

I am saying that it is impossible for a Christian to commit a sin that is a "Sin unto spiritual death". Because God is our keeper. We cannot die spiritually after He has born us again.
But I do not rule out that God may allow us to sin. And He may even remove us from this life if we were to commit a sin. He may even remove us before we can commit the sin. He is God. We belong to Him, He can do with us as He chooses.

Think of this. We know in 1 John that he speaks of a sin unto death. He ends the book by saying this:
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Why waiste the ink to write this if it was impossible for them to do it?
If they were not born again, keeping themselvs from idols wasn't going to save them and if they were born again, then you say they could not do it.
I see this repeatedly throughout scripture. The apostles instructing the church not only what to do, but what not to do.