Salvation and sin

[DHK]

Of course she sinned, but not adultery or any similar sin.

This is where your theology breaks down.
There is no difference between Rahab's lie or the woman's adultery. You admit: "Of course she sinned." But whether the sin was a lie, adultery, or anger, it is sin in God's sight. And all sin is the same. It has equal value in the sight of God. In God's sight it is a transgression of the law.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.

 

[convicted1]

Re: Sin and Repentance

I have followed this thread from afar by just stopping in and reading some of the posts here and there. I have to say I am with Bro Bob on this one.

Here is a weak Allegory(sp?) if this is the right word to use.....

I live in the country, I was raised in the country, and will die in the country, if God permits me to. Anyone who has lived in the country knows what I mean by canning vegetables...such as corn, pickles, green beans, etc. Let's say the jar represents our mortal body. It's made of glass and is very fragile. The vegetables represent our "inward man". To preserve the vegetables, some things have to happen. You have to put salt with the vegetables...salt is the Spirit that gives us our life, and helps keeps us preserved. Water is also added, without water we can't make it, nor be preserved. After this, they put a lid and ring around the top of the jar to keep everything in the jar, plus to keep the air out...the "air" represents Satan. The lid and ring represents the "SEAL" that God places on His children. No man can break this seal that God places on His children, either. You see, after everything is done, it takes time to preserve the food. In our life, our walk with the Lord makes us stronger and He helps us with our daily struggles in life. Now, you can take that jar and turn it any way you want to, and the vegetables will remain in it. When God "preserves" us(saves us iow), we will be preserved until the day of redemption. I pray that this doesn't "muddy" the water more, but makes things clearer. May God bless!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Re: Sin and Repentance

In follow-up to my previous post, by the vegetables being "sloshed" about the jar and not coming out is representing the "bounds" that God places on His children! I pray that this sheds some light on this subject. May God bless!!

Willis

 

[DHK]

When God "preserves" us(saves us iow), we will be preserved until the day of redemption. I pray that this doesn't "muddy" the water more, but makes things clearer. May God bless!!

Willis

Do you also believe that God will not allow you to sin until the day of redemption. That seems to be what you are saying in your illustration. You are sealed in your jar from all the evils of the world, protected from sin and sinning.

 

[convicted1]

Re: Sin and Repentance

Do you also believe that God will not allow you to sin until the day of redemption. That seems to be what you are saying in your illustration. You are sealed in your jar from all the evils of the world, protected from sin and sinning.

No no no no, I am not saying that in the least! I am saying that God perserves us, in that we know not to commit such things such as adultrey, lying, drinking, stealing, etc. Sin is condemned in the flesh, but we who are His know not to commit such things.

 

[DHK]

No no no no, I am not saying that in the least! I am saying that God perserves us, in that we know not to commit such things such as adultrey, lying, drinking, stealing, etc. Sin is condemned in the flesh, but we who are His know not to commit such things.

There is knowledge, and there is action.
Almost all of us posting here have sufficient knowledge of the Bible to know what Christ wants us to do, and not to do.
That doesn't mean "that God will preserve us from committing those sins." Nowhere in the Bible is there such a promise given.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

He will keep my salvation; but He has never promised to keep me from sinning, even from the "big sins," or mortal sins as the RCC calls them. Your theology (similar to Bob's) falls dangerously close to the RCC, in that respect.

 

[convicted1]

Re: Sin and Repentance

DHK,

I truly love you as a Brother in Christ, and respect you as an individual, but we will have to agree to disagree on this. I read no where where we can commit sin(by sin, I mean continuing in sin, btw) and be a CHRISTian. If we become dead to sin, how can we live any longer therein? My hope is in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I am no longer a keeper of myself, but am kept by the power of God. BIG difference in me trying to keep myself, than God doing it, my friend. A spring can not bring forth both sweet and bitter water; it has to be one or the other...no "straddling the fence. When I prayed to God to save me, I knew that He who saves, will keep that which He saved.

A lot of the confusion that is amongst us is all semantics, I think. It's real hard to get the true meaning of what we post across to each other. If we were face-to-face, we would understand more, I think. I am afraid that what I post from time to time may come across as harsh, when that is not my intention at all. But, I can't see calling someone a "Brother" or "Sister", if they lie, steal, cheat on their spouse, etc. I am sorry, but I can't. A lot of confusion comes from some who say all you have to do is quote Romans 10:9-10 and you're saved, or having them settling on anything short of the GRACE OF GOD. There's a MAJOR difference in "professing" christianity, and "posessing"(sp?) it( they praise me with their lips, but their heart is far from me). Most people who claim to be christian and do such things, haven't been down to the banquet house and had their Robes washed white in the Blood of the Lamb. I know DHK, that you and I will never agree on this, but I want you to know that I love you!!

As far as RCC and my beliefs, the RCC believe you can do this, ask some man to forgive them of it, and everything's okay(or close to this??). I believe that a Child of the King KNOWS not to do it. Major difference. I am not saying any of us are perfect, I know I am not...but God, Praise Him, gave me a new mind. With this new mind, I don't sleep with other women, stay in bars, get drunk, lie, steal, etc. God gave me enough sense to stay away from the things I once did. By the fruits they bare, ye shall know them. I hope you understand where I am coming from. FWIW, I am quite sure Bro Bob and I see this pretty much eye to eye. Take care!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Re: Sin and Repentance

double post!!! Grrrrr!!

Willis

 

[skypair]

If they are saved, then they don't become castaways.

Sure they do! Did you read the selection? He's saved -- Pual's "Striving for a mastery" (sanctification) -- he's running for a "crown" (reward, not salvation -- there's no "crowns" for the lost)! He "keeps his body under ; lest that by any means when he has preached, he should be castaway." "Castaway" like a dead branch.

So I guess now I'm thinking you are in the "progressive salvation" business -- can't know you're saved till you die?


Anyway, I had a pastor once like you. It's acceptable, though not an encouragement, for the pastor to lead a sinless life in his cozy little office and pulpit and parsonage and even out at the store.

Under him, I had to kinda "look beyond" some of his preaching to the God of scripture. But there are some who will never live the Christian life unless they are challenged your way. I think of an SDA friend (course they put themselves back under the law) I knew who admitted as much.

So at this juncture, I guess we'll be like friends and talk about things that are more agreeable. :godisgood:

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

This is where your theology breaks down.
There is no difference between Rahab's lie or the woman's adultery. You admit: "Of course she sinned." But whether the sin was a lie, adultery, or anger, it is sin in God's sight. And all sin is the same. It has equal value in the sight of God. In God's sight it is a transgression of the law.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.

Not according to Jesus.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

If they are saved, then they don't become castaways.[/QUOTE] Sure the do! Did you read the selection? He's saved -- he's "Striving for a mastery" (santcification) -- he's running for a "crown" (reward, not salvation)! He "keeps his body under ; lest that by any means when he has preached, he should be castaway." "Castaway" like a dead branch.

So I guess now I'm thinking you are in the "progressive salvation" business -- can't know you're saved till you die?


Anyway, I had a pastor once like you. It's acceptable, though not an encouragement, for the pastor to lead a sinless life in his cozy little office and pulpit and parsonage and even out at the store.

Under him, I had to kinda "look beyond" some of his preaching to the God of scripture. But there are some who will never live the Christian life unless they are challenged your way. I think of an SDA friend (course they put themselves back under the law) I knew who admitted as much.

So at this juncture, I guess we'll be like friends and talk about things that are more agreeable. :godisgood:

skypair

Good idea......:thumbs:

 

[skypair]

No no no no, I am not saying that in the least! I am saying that God perserves us, in that we know not to commit such things such as adultrey, lying, drinking, stealing, etc. Sin is condemned in the flesh, but we who are His know not to commit such things.

I think in your alusion that the jar can get "very dirty" with sin but the inside remains preserved.

DHK, Bob, and I are discussing the issue Bob is not willing to address -- that by Bob's proposing that certain sins preclude one from going to heaven, then it is quite possible that a professing Christian can lose his/her salvation because the outside of his/her "Ball jar" got dirty.

DHK and I are saying that the dirty jar will merely be washed off (1Cor 3:13-14) before the contents are released.

Here's an example I know we can all sink our teeth into -- divorce and remarriage. Now Bob's gonna say (judging by his last post to me) that based on their adulterous lives now and ignoring David of the OT, they weren't saved to begin with despite any profession on their part otherwise. Therefore, Bob wants to get 'em saved (again, if necessary).

But DHK and I are likely to believe their "good" profession, ask that they repent, and try to teach them how to live sanctified lives by 1) controlling their flesh and 2) growing in the word. We won't let them be bishops or deacons in our churches (1Tim 3:2, 12) -- they're what we would call "castaway" so far as some ministries are concerned. But we certainly restore them to life in the church, 2Cor 2:6-8.

So I guess in your alusion, if the bottle was dirty, Bob would throw it out but the rest of us are likely to wash it off and enjoy the contents! :laugh: Hey, Bob! Let us have your dirty jars! :1_grouphug:

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

I think in your alusion that the jar can get "very dirty" with sin but the inside remains preserved.

DHK, Bob, and I are discussing the issue Bob is not willing to address -- that by Bob's proposing that certain sins preclude one from going to heaven, then it is quite possible that a professing Christian can lose his/her salvation because the outside of his/her "Ball jar" got dirty.

DHK and I are saying that the dirty jar will merely be washed off (1Cor 3:13-14) before the contents are released.

Here's an example I know we can all sink our teeth into -- divorce and remarriage. Now Bob's gonna say (judging by his last post to me) that based on their adulterous lives now and ignoring David of the OT, they weren't saved to begin with despite any profession on their part otherwise. Therefore, Bob wants to get 'em saved (again, if necessary).

But DHK and I are likely to believe their "good" profession, ask that they repent, and try to teach them how to live sanctified lives by 1) controlling their flesh and 2) growing in the word. We won't let them be bishops or deacons in our churches (1Tim 3:2, 12) -- they're what we would call "castaway" so far as some ministries are concerned. But we certainly restore them to life in the church, 2Cor 2:6-8.

So I guess in your alusion, if the bottle was dirty, Bob would throw it out but the rest of us are likely to wash it off and enjoy the contents! :laugh: Hey, Bob! Let us have your dirty jars! :1_grouphug:

skypair

If you so good a "washing" it off, then why not keep it clean to start with. Anyone who has the ability to "wash" it off, has the ability to walk after the Spirit.
Anyway, if you are not walking after the Spirit, you are not following the Lord anyway.

There is too many scripture against you. You don't have a chance.
Also, I don't believe in such a thing as "saved again". I do believe a person can repent of any sin, except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and be "washed" off the first time and be kept by the power of God.

Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition. (devil) This scripture shows that He was keeping them.

You just are not able to contradict scripture and to say that God's church is full of adulterers, incester, pedophilers, liars. What kind of church is that?

Looks like it would bother you to believe that if you get saved, then sin won't count against you. But then you turn right around and say if we sin, we have an advocate with God, so you cross yourself, for the sin is remembered against you again, which would make God a liar. If God says your sins will never be remembered against you anymore, that is exactly what He means. You can't say, well we sinned so now we need the chastisement rod and say they were covered by the blood at the cross at the same time. Can't you see you are using double talk?

BBob,

 

[skypair]

If you so good a "washing" it off, then why not keep it clean to start with. Anyone who has the ability to "wash" it off, has the ability to walk after the Spirit.

Yes, He could keep it clean to start with. He COULD take it out of the world thus completely sanctifying it. But He didn't do that. Instead He said "in the world but not of the world." And everything that is in the world is going to get dirty.

Anyway, if you are not walking after the Spirit, you are not following the Lord anyway.

So saved = walking in the Spirit? Paul mustn't have been saved in Rom 7:14-17, 22-23 then, eh? What say ye on this?

"14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ...
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition. (devil) This scripture shows that He was keeping them.

Sure He was! But it doesn't show that He is keeping them CLEAN! Truth be told, they weren't even indwelt by the Spirit at this point. And then add to that Peter denies Christ 3 times. And the flock "scatters" after the cross.

Basically, from my perspective, you appear to be expecting the FLESH to be preserved unto eternal life as well.


skypair

 

[skypair]

Bob,

Let me explain this one more thing:

But then you turn right around and say if we sin, we have an advocate with God, so you cross yourself, for the sin is remembered against you again, which would make God a liar. If God says your sins will never be remembered against you anymore, that is exactly what He means. You can't say, well we sinned so now we need the chastisement rod and say they were covered by the blood at the cross at the same time. Can't you see you are using double talk?

The "Advocate" clears me of or lessens the PHYSICAL consequences regarding sins that I CONFESS. There are no direct "hereafter" consequences of sin. There is loss of rewards, to be sure, but the Advocate pleads for mercy in the "here and now."

And why is that again? Because the flesh is the enemy of sanctification. It must decrease and He must increase.

Do you realize that some people are actually going to have to see the consequences of sin before they believe it is sin? Though saved, they still believe the flesh more than God. And more than friends. They feel they are in a situation that they have prayed about and God has done nothing -- so they take matters into their own hands/flesh. In their immature way, "they tried God" but no food was coming to the table -- the abusive husband was not going away, the husband with Alzheimer's was suffering a fate worse than death, etc.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Just to throw something else in the pot.
Regarding our advocate:


Jhn 13:8 Peter said to Him, "You shall never wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
Jhn 13:10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash [his] feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Now most people see this as just a lesson in serving one another, but washing is always associated with forgiveness in the Bible. To be washed clean is to be forgiven of sins.
Jesus says they are clean, yet they need to have their feet washed. I believe this is because we are going to get dirty with sin as long as we walk in this world, but we are still "clean" in the sense that we are still saved. But we must have Christ wash our feet daily in order to grow and be conformed to His image.
We must also wash one another's feet, not just in the sense of serving one another, but also forgiving one another.

Just my thoughts.

 

[J.D.]

Just to throw something else in the pot.
Regarding our advocate:


Jhn 13:8 Peter said to Him, "You shall never wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
Jhn 13:10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash [his] feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Now most people see this as just a lesson in serving one another, but washing is always associated with forgiveness in the Bible. To be washed clean is to be forgiven of sins.
Jesus says they are clean, yet they need to have their feet washed. I believe this is because we are going to get dirty with sin as long as we walk in this world, but we are still "clean" in the sense that we are still saved. But we must have Christ wash our feet daily in order to grow and be conformed to His image.
We must also wash one another's feet, not just in the sense of serving one another, but also forgiving one another.

Just my thoughts.

Great insight Amy. I've never thought of it that way before. In addition to forgiveness, I wonder if it could be related to admonishing and encouraging one another as in Hebrews 10:24-25?

 

[Amy.G]

Great insight Amy. I've never thought of it that way before. In addition to forgiveness, I wonder if it could be related to admonishing and encouraging one another as in Hebrews 10:24-25?

Possibly. I think it is all connected. How can we encourage one another if we're holding something against our brother or sister?

 

[DHK]

Not according to Jesus.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

BBob,

Jesus only alludes twice to sins which may be considered greater than any other sins.
1. The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which many posters have already mentioned). and,
2. The sin mentioned here. What is it? Judas sin: What does Jesus say about it?

Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition. (devil) This scripture shows that He was keeping them.

Judas was the son of perdition. He was inhabited by Satan. He betrayed the Son of God into the hands of the Pharisees. He had the greater sin.
Only these two sins are greater than any other sins mentioned in the Bible. So you can stop the out of context proof-text which denies the truth of James 2:10, a truth you don't want to accept.

Here is a problem you have.
The disciples (apart from Judas) were saved. Jesus did not have unsaved disciples. Peter had given his great confession: "Thou art the Messiah, the son of the living God," which Jesus recognized as a confession of his faith, and a statement that was given to him by God. "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father in heaven." Peter was a saved individual.

You say that God does not allow believers to sin.

Jesus told Peter that he would sin. He was going to allow Peter sin, directly contrary to your belief. He told Peter that before the cock crows, Peter would deny him three times.
And Peter did deny His Lord three times. That is one of the most terrible sins any Christian can do. What a terrible sin it is to deny the very one that saves you from your sin. And Peter did it--not once; not twice; but three times!! You say that God does not allow you to sin. But Christ did allow Peter to sin. He told Peter he would sin; he would allow it. And Peter did. It was a grievous sin that caused Peter to go and weep.

Your theology would condemn Peter to Hell; would tell us that Peter was not really saved in the first place. Such a person could not sin. This was terrible. Peter could not sin, according to you. But he did. And he didn't lose his salvation. He lost his fellowship with the Lord for a short period of time, and then regained that fellowship as soon as he repented. His salvation was never affected.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, He could keep it clean to start with. He COULD take it out of the world thus completely sanctifying it. But He didn't do that. Instead He said "in the world but not of the world." And everything that is in the world is going to get dirty.

Wonder why He said "not of the world", must of been a purpose.


So saved = walking in the Spirit? Paul mustn't have been saved in Rom 7:14-17, 22-23 then, eh? What say ye on this?

Why do you think he felt condemned if not in the Spirit. The flesh sure was not going to condemn him.

"14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ...
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Sure He was! But it doesn't show that He is keeping them CLEAN! Truth be told, they weren't even indwelt by the Spirit at this point. And then add to that Peter denies Christ 3 times. And the flock "scatters" after the cross.

I know,and that is why he was able to deny the Lord. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost and he lost his head. You do see the difference don't you?

Basically, from my perspective, you appear to be expecting the FLESH to be preserved unto eternal life as well.

No, and I can see why you have to come up with the wild accusations to try and defend your position. I just believe they are perserved from committing the sins unto death. That all, even though they do sin a sin not unto death.


skypair

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