Salvation and sin

[reformedbeliever]

DHK, Amy G , thank you for your correct interpretation of scripture. What a Savior we have!

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

Let me explain this one more thing:

The "Advocate" clears me of or lessens the PHYSICAL consequences regarding sins that I CONFESS. There are no direct "hereafter" consequences of sin. There is loss of rewards, to be sure, but the Advocate pleads for mercy in the "here and now."

And why is that again? Because the flesh is the enemy of sanctification. It must decrease and He must increase.

Do you realize that some people are actually going to have to see the consequences of sin before they believe it is sin? Though saved, they still believe the flesh more than God. And more than friends. They feel they are in a situation that they have prayed about and God has done nothing -- so they take matters into their own hands/flesh. In their immature way, "they tried God" but no food was coming to the table -- the abusive husband was not going away, the husband with Alzheimer's was suffering a fate worse than death, etc.

skypair

That does not change the fact that his sins are remembered against him again, and you say they were covered at the cross and never to be remembered. So, you cross yourself.

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus only alludes twice to sins which may be considered greater than any other sins.
1. The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which many posters have already mentioned). and,
2. The sin mentioned here. What is it? Judas sin: What does Jesus say about it?

Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition. (devil) This scripture shows that He was keeping them.

Judas was the son of perdition. He was inhabited by Satan. He betrayed the Son of God into the hands of the Pharisees. He had the greater sin.
Only these two sins are greater than any other sins mentioned in the Bible. So you can stop the out of context proof-text which denies the truth of James 2:10, a truth you don't want to accept.

So, you are saying Judas's sin was of the devil and ours are not? That is just plain false.

Here is a problem you have.
The disciples (apart from Judas) were saved. Jesus did not have unsaved disciples. Peter had given his great confession: "Thou art the Messiah, the son of the living God," which Jesus recognized as a confession of his faith, and a statement that was given to him by God. "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father in heaven." Peter was a saved individual.

You say that God does not allow believers to sin.

Jesus told Peter that he would sin. He was going to allow Peter sin, directly contrary to your belief. He told Peter that before the cock crows, Peter would deny him three times.
And Peter did deny His Lord three times. That is one of the most terrible sins any Christian can do. What a terrible sin it is to deny the very one that saves you from your sin. And Peter did it--not once; not twice; but three times!! You say that God does not allow you to sin. But Christ did allow Peter to sin. He told Peter he would sin; he would allow it. And Peter did. It was a grievous sin that caused Peter to go and weep.

Your theology would condemn Peter to Hell; would tell us that Peter was not really saved in the first place. Such a person could not sin. This was terrible. Peter could not sin, according to you. But he did. And he didn't lose his salvation. He lost his fellowship with the Lord for a short period of time, and then regained that fellowship as soon as he repented. His salvation was never affected.

No, let me give you the example I gave Sky. Peter at the time did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. There was one at the time who did have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, for he was borned with it. His name is John the Baptist and when he had to stand up for the Lord, he never denied him but gave his life, by losing his head, for the word of God. Can't you see what the Holy Ghost does for God's children.

BBob,
...................

 

[MB]

So says the scripture, I don't care what the Pope says.
Also, I agree with Rom 8:1 for if they are walking after the Spirit, how could they commit sins that bring spiritual death.

Aren't we both spirit and body?

Again, I agree the wages of sin is death and not the natural death either, for it is an appointment to all men. It means the second death.

BBob,

Actually it means both physcial and spiritual. The spirit can be saved but the flesh in it's present condition cannot be. Which is why we will be given a new body.
MB

 

[MB]

No, let me give you the example I gave Sky. Peter at the time did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. There was one at the time who did have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, for he was borned with it. His name is John the Baptist and when he had to stand up for the Lord, he never denied him but gave his life, by losing his head, for the word of God. Can't you see what the Holy Ghost does for God's children.

BBob,
...................

Because Peter didn't have the Spirit at the time doesn't mean he was lost does it? When I was saved I had to wait a little while before Baptism. Was I saved or not. You see I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in His name. It's the whole purpose of Baptism isn't it. Scripture doesn't say any where we receive Him the moment we believe. Baptism isn't for the washing of my sins, because the blood of Christ did that when I first believed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
This is why we are baptized in the name of the Father , The Son , and the Holy Ghost.
MB

 

[skypair]

That does not change the fact that his sins are remembered against him again, and you say they were covered at the cross and never to be remembered. So, you cross yourself.

Hey Bob, I am very curious to see where you find this. I really didn't intend to extend our conversation but sin brought up at the Bema -- that I gotta see.

skypair

 

[DHK]

So, you are saying Judas's sin was of the devil and ours are not? That is just plain false.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

No, it isn't false. Satan actually entered into the heart of Judas Iscariot.
Satan does not cause any one of us to sin. Don't play "the devil made me do it" game. We sin because we choose to. If you lie, you do it because you wanted to. Suppose (and it is suppose) if any of you men tell your wife that she is the prettiest thing on earth, when she is grossly overweight (reaching 300 lbs.), then you have lied. Loving your wife doesn't include lying. If you cheat on your taxes (even just a little fudging), then you have stolen from the government, and you are no better than a common thief.
You chose to sin. We make choices all the time. Satan does not make us do those things. We do it. And we have no one to blame but ourselves.

In Judas's case, he was not only demon-possessed; he was Satan-possessed. It was Satan himself that entered into Judas. He didn't even trust this work to one of his demons.
Study the sin of Judas Iscariot out. Find out how serious the Scriptures state that it is. He is called the son of perdition for good reason.

No, let me give you the example I gave Sky. Peter at the time did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

So according to you he wasn't saved, in spite of his great confession that was given straight by the inspiration of the Father.

There was one at the time who did have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, for he was borned with it. His name is John the Baptist and when he had to stand up for the Lord, he never denied him but gave his life, by losing his head, for the word of God. Can't you see what the Holy Ghost does for God's children.

BBob,
...................

No, Bob. John the Baptist never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He died before Pentecost took place. Your theology needs to be corrected.

 

[Brother Bob]

Because Peter didn't have the Spirit at the time doesn't mean he was lost does it? When I was saved I had to wait a little while before Baptism. Was I saved or not. You see I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in His name. It's the whole purpose of Baptism isn't it. Scripture doesn't say any where we receive Him the moment we believe. Baptism isn't for the washing of my sins, because the blood of Christ did that when I first believed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
This is why we are baptized in the name of the Father , The Son , and the Holy Ghost.
MB

The blood of Christ is the baptism, the Holy Ghost baptism. No, Peter was not lost.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey Bob, I am very curious to see where you find this. I really didn't intend to extend our conversation but sin brought up at the Bema -- that I gotta see.

skypair

You misunderstand. When we become in need of the advocate, or the chastisement rod, is when the same sin, you say was covered and not to be remembered, in fact is remembered again, or how come the chastisement.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

No, it isn't false. Satan actually entered into the heart of Judas Iscariot.
Satan does not cause any one of us to sin. Don't play "the devil made me do it" game. We sin because we choose to. If you lie, you do it because you wanted to. Suppose (and it is suppose) if any of you men tell your wife that she is the prettiest thing on earth, when she is grossly overweight (reaching 300 lbs.), then you have lied. Loving your wife doesn't include lying. If you cheat on your taxes (even just a little fudging), then you have stolen from the government, and you are no better than a common thief.
You chose to sin. We make choices all the time. Satan does not make us do those things. We do it. And we have no one to blame but ourselves.

And when we sin, satan is no where around, is that what you are saying. Satan don't make us do it, but we are lending our member to him, to do it.

In Judas's case, he was not only demon-possessed; he was Satan-possessed. It was Satan himself that entered into Judas. He didn't even trust this work to one of his demons.
Study the sin of Judas Iscariot out. Find out how serious the Scriptures state that it is. He is called the son of perdition for good reason.
[/color]
So according to you he wasn't saved, in spite of his great confession that was given straight by the inspiration of the Father.
Of course he was saved. You remember when you said the adultereous woman was under the Law.

No, Bob. John the Baptist never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He died before Pentecost took place. Your theology needs to be corrected.

I beg to differ, there is only one Holy Ghost and John had it.

Luk 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. I think you fail to see just how great a man John the Baptist was. He was a man sent of God to make ready a prepared people, and he was filled with the Holy Ghost.
...........

 

[DHK]

I beg to differ, there is only one Holy Ghost and John had it.

Luk 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
...........

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

To be filled is not the same as to be indwelt.
At salvation every believer since Pentecost is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Subsequent to salvation, every believer is still commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
--That is a command.

Exodus 31:2-3 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

In the OT certain individuals were filled with the Holy Spirit, but never indwelt with the Holy Spirit. So it was with John.

 

[DHK]

And when we sin, satan is no where around, is that what you are saying. Satan don't make us do it, but we are lending our member to him, to do it.

How do you know when Satan is around and when he isn't.
Satan is not God, and only God is omnipresent. Only God can make himself everywhere at one time. Satan does not have that ability.
We may say that Satan is ubiquitous. That is that it seems like Satan is omnipresent. He has such an army of demons that it seems like he is everywhere. He gets his demons to do his work for him. But Satan can only be at one place at one time.
And no, Satan (or his demons) don't make you do anything. That is just an excuse. Are you blaming someone else for your sins Bob??

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

To be filled is not the same as to be indwelt.
At salvation every believer since Pentecost is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Subsequent to salvation, every believer is still commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
--That is a command.

Exodus 31:2-3 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

In the OT certain individuals were filled with the Holy Spirit, but never indwelt with the Holy Spirit. So it was with John.

You need to study some more DHK;

Act 4:31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

BBob,

 

[Joe]

John 20

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 

[Brother Bob]

How do you know when Satan is around and when he isn't.
Satan is not God, and only God is omnipresent. Only God can make himself everywhere at one time. Satan does not have that ability.
We may say that Satan is ubiquitous. That is that it seems like Satan is omnipresent. He has such an army of demons that it seems like he is everywhere. He gets his demons to do his work for him. But Satan can only be at one place at one time.
And no, Satan (or his demons) don't make you do anything. That is just an excuse. Are you blaming someone else for your sins Bob??

Satan is an evil spirit and when you do wrong, you are following the evil spirit.
How do I know when satan is around, just look were sin is and satan is right in the midst.

No man can serve two masters, he will love one and hate the other. Satan is the very essence of evil.

Never heard in my life that a man could sin and satan not be a part of it. This is news to me.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You need to study some more DHK;

Act 4:31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

BBob,

This event happened after Pentecost; after they had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. In fact they were filled with the Holy Spirit after having been already been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you account for that Bob? The filling and the indwelling are two separate things. The filling of the Holy Spirit was to give them boldness in evangelism. Look at the result: "They spake the Word of God with boldness."
They were indwelt with the Holy Spirit previous to this on the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended on all the believers.
They are not the same thing.

 

[Brother Bob]

This event happened after Pentecost; after they had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. In fact they were filled with the Holy Spirit after having been already been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. How do you account for that Bob? The filling and the indwelling are two separate things. The filling of the Holy Spirit was to give them boldness in evangelism. Look at the result: "They spake the Word of God with boldness."
They were indwelt with the Holy Spirit previous to this on the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended on all the believers.
They are not the same thing.

You are not thinking right DHK; This is the Penecost..

Act 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You are not thinking right DHK; This is the Penecost..

Act 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

BBob,

You quoted from Acts 4. You are now being deceitful. Now you quote from Acts 2 as if it is the same verse in Acts 4. They are not the same verse are they? Let's try some honesty here before you lose your salvation. :saint:

Being filled with the Holy Spirit they were able to speak in other languages. This event speaks of the apostles and perhaps includes the 120 of the upper room that had been praying.
We then have some miraculous events taking place: speaking in other languages, a mighty rushing wind, cloven tongues of fire.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter explains in his sermon what is happening. God is pouring out His Spirit on them that believe. From that time onward those that call on the name of the Lord would be saved; God's Spirit would indwell them.

 

[Brother Bob]

You quoted from Acts 4. You are now being deceitful. Now you quote from Acts 2 as if it is the same verse in Acts 4. They are not the same verse are they? Let's try some honesty here before you lose your salvation. :saint:

Being filled with the Holy Spirit they were able to speak in other languages. This event speaks of the apostles and perhaps includes the 120 of the upper room that had been praying.
We then have some miraculous events taking place: speaking in other languages, a mighty rushing wind, cloven tongues of fire.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter explains in his sermon what is happening. God is pouring out His Spirit on them that believe. From that time onward those that call on the name of the Lord would be saved; God's Spirit would indwell them.

Not being deceitful, I gave you verse 4 and you said, well that was after the day of Penecost, is why it said "filled". or that is the essence of what you said.

So, I gave you the day of Penecost and low and behold, they were also "filled" with the Holy Ghost.

DHK; its time to just come clean, you are getting in deeper and deeper. You messed up again.



Acts, chapter 2


Compare with Revised Standard Version: Acts.02
Acts: 2


1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You are flat out wrong, so you just need to come clean and admit it.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Not being deceitful, I gave you verse 4 and you said, well that was after the day of Penecost, is why it said "filled". or that is the essence of what you said.

So, I gave you the day of Penecost and low and behold, they were also "filled" with the Holy Ghost.

DHK; its time to just come clean, you are getting in deeper and deeper. You messed up again.



Acts, chapter 2


Compare with Revised Standard Version: Acts.02
Acts: 2


1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You are flat out wrong, so you just need to come clean and admit it.

BBob,

Bob, look back at your posts.
In post 293 you quote:
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

The above takes place about three days after Pentecost.
However, you refer to the filling of the Spirit mentioned in 4:31 in the same breath and context as if it were in chapter 2:4.
That is deceitful. In fact it is almost the same as a lie, isn't it? They are not the same. The event in chapter four took place well after The Day of Pentecost. Check out your own posts: 293 and 297. I hope you can follow your own conversation.