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Salvation Assurance Beliefs
- Thread starter drfuss
- Start date
JJ writes:
"No. 1 is the only one that doesn't cause contradictions to be placed on Scripture if we take out the "heaven" as the place believers will spend eternity.
All other views place contradictions on Scripture."
I suspect all beliefs have supporting scriptures and think the other belief's scriptures are inconsistant.
Belief #1 is different from the others in a very basic way. Belief #1 says a person can spend eternity with God even if he does not believe in Christ when he dies. The person only had to believe at one time. In the other beliefs, the criteria for getting to heaven includes the requirement to believe in Christ when you die.
IMO, the criteria for getting to heaven (be with God) is a more important difference than the OSAS/freewill issue. Yet, this difference between #1 & 2 is hardly ever discussed on this board, at least in this terminology. Why is that?
Is this difference a taboo subject among the OSAS folks?
"No. 1 is the only one that doesn't cause contradictions to be placed on Scripture if we take out the "heaven" as the place believers will spend eternity.
All other views place contradictions on Scripture."
I suspect all beliefs have supporting scriptures and think the other belief's scriptures are inconsistant.
Belief #1 is different from the others in a very basic way. Belief #1 says a person can spend eternity with God even if he does not believe in Christ when he dies. The person only had to believe at one time. In the other beliefs, the criteria for getting to heaven includes the requirement to believe in Christ when you die.
IMO, the criteria for getting to heaven (be with God) is a more important difference than the OSAS/freewill issue. Yet, this difference between #1 & 2 is hardly ever discussed on this board, at least in this terminology. Why is that?
Is this difference a taboo subject among the OSAS folks?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Some Calvinists believe that you "simply wake up one day to DISCOVER that you are saved". Making that "discovery" that you are born again, ALIVE in Christ, the NEW Creation fully reconciled to God - you THEN are enabled to CHOOSE to repent and believe and even do the works of righteousness if you so please.
Since that means you had no part in coming to Christ - then OSAS may very well be the logical extension - nothing you do will cause you to be lost just as you had no part in coming to Christ to begin with.
There is a reasonable way to link those two IF you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist.
In Christ,
Bob
Since that means you had no part in coming to Christ - then OSAS may very well be the logical extension - nothing you do will cause you to be lost just as you had no part in coming to Christ to begin with.
There is a reasonable way to link those two IF you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
drfuss said:
That is the "value" of intelligent open-minded objective debate.
Without it - each side simply regurgitates it's own "Favorite texts" and ignores the disconfirming texts that expose its flaws.
In "authentic" debate you would be confronted with the "hard questions" and would not take the less honorable tactic of misdirecting, glossing over and avoiding the texts that challenge your views.
Doesn't happen very often - but every once in a while you get to see it.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan writes:
"Some Calvinists believe that you "simply wake up one day to DISCOVER that you are saved". Making that "discovery" that you are born again, ALIVE in Christ, the NEW Creation fully reconciled to God - you THEN are enabled to CHOOSE to repent and believe and even do the works of righteousness if you so please.
Since that means you had no part in coming to Christ - then OSAS may very well be the logical extension - nothing you do will cause you to be lost just as you had no part in coming to Christ to begin with.
There is a reasonable way to link those two IF you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist."
I realize now that a big part of the communiction problem that I have been having here is my lack of familiarity with 3,4, & 5 point Calvinist beliefs. Developing a new set of beliefs without being knowledgeable about the existing one has lead to difficulties. I should have done my homework first.
Thank you all for being patient with me, particularily BobRyan who kept pointing me to the Calvinist beliefs..
drfuss
"Some Calvinists believe that you "simply wake up one day to DISCOVER that you are saved". Making that "discovery" that you are born again, ALIVE in Christ, the NEW Creation fully reconciled to God - you THEN are enabled to CHOOSE to repent and believe and even do the works of righteousness if you so please.
Since that means you had no part in coming to Christ - then OSAS may very well be the logical extension - nothing you do will cause you to be lost just as you had no part in coming to Christ to begin with.
There is a reasonable way to link those two IF you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist."
I realize now that a big part of the communiction problem that I have been having here is my lack of familiarity with 3,4, & 5 point Calvinist beliefs. Developing a new set of beliefs without being knowledgeable about the existing one has lead to difficulties. I should have done my homework first.
Thank you all for being patient with me, particularily BobRyan who kept pointing me to the Calvinist beliefs..
drfuss
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Just for clarification - I am Arminian not Calvinist.
But I have shown that 4 point Calvinists have the BEST platform to argue BOTH OSAS and "assurance" because they reject the Bible teaching on both perseverance and the Romans 10 process of belief that leads to salvation.
5 Point Calvinists have a good argument for OSAS - but not for assurance since they too believe that "you wake up one day and simply discover you are saved". But in their acceptance of the Bible doctrine on perseverance they get into a little trouble by adding to it the "retro delete" of salvation for those who fail to persevere ten years from today.
Arminians have no grounds at all "in our doctrinal model" for OSAS but we do have a great basis for Assurance. In fact we have an even better one than the 5 point Calvinists because you have no need to "retro delete" salvation in a pure Arminian model of free will that also does not hold to the error of OSAS.
Faith and Works fit in that system in the same way Christ says they would in Matt 7, in Romans 2 and in James 2.
But I have shown that 4 point Calvinists have the BEST platform to argue BOTH OSAS and "assurance" because they reject the Bible teaching on both perseverance and the Romans 10 process of belief that leads to salvation.
5 Point Calvinists have a good argument for OSAS - but not for assurance since they too believe that "you wake up one day and simply discover you are saved". But in their acceptance of the Bible doctrine on perseverance they get into a little trouble by adding to it the "retro delete" of salvation for those who fail to persevere ten years from today.
Arminians have no grounds at all "in our doctrinal model" for OSAS but we do have a great basis for Assurance. In fact we have an even better one than the 5 point Calvinists because you have no need to "retro delete" salvation in a pure Arminian model of free will that also does not hold to the error of OSAS.
Faith and Works fit in that system in the same way Christ says they would in Matt 7, in Romans 2 and in James 2.
BobRyan writes:
"Just for clarification - I am Arminian not Calvinist."
I could tell you are, Bob.
But you just demonstrated the problem I have with either Arminian or Calvinists classifications. There are three types of Calvinists. The Calvinists on this board tend to classify Arminians as all who are not Calvinists. I was trying to get across that there are various types of Arminians.
Most Calvinists that I know personally think that Arminians really don't know that they are saved, but just hope so. Hopefully, most Calvinists on this board know better, but sometimes I wonder if they do know.
"Just for clarification - I am Arminian not Calvinist."
I could tell you are, Bob.
But you just demonstrated the problem I have with either Arminian or Calvinists classifications. There are three types of Calvinists. The Calvinists on this board tend to classify Arminians as all who are not Calvinists. I was trying to get across that there are various types of Arminians.
Most Calvinists that I know personally think that Arminians really don't know that they are saved, but just hope so. Hopefully, most Calvinists on this board know better, but sometimes I wonder if they do know.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: May I take a shot at categorizing them?
- Consistent Calvinists
- Inconsistent Calvinists
- Calvinists that don’t know they are Calvinists
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
drfuss said:
I agree. There are Arminians that reject the error of OSAS and there are those that embrace it EVEN though it directly contradicts the central distinctive of Arminianism which is free will.
Some Calvinists are pretty good at exposing this inconsistency within the camp of the Arminians - and I certainly agree that they have a good point there.
That is true they think that - but they are not thinking this through objectively.
Just as the Arminian doctrinal distinctive has NO logical basis for OSAS - the 3 and 5 point Calvinist docrinal distinctives have NO logical basis for assurance but they DO have a basis for OSAS!
The Arminian CAN be assured (and many are) that they are SAVED TODAY but they can not be assure that they WILL remain faithful ten years from today and will be saved ten years from today.
The 3 and 5 point Calvinists can not even be assured of that much - since they would not only be lost Ten years from today if they fail to persevere they would ALSO not be saved TODAY!
Just stating the obvious.
In Christ,
Bob