Salvation Assurance Beliefs

[James_Newman]

HP: What further evidence did Agrippa need to be persuaded, when he said, “Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” ?

Possibly it is not more evidence one needs, but a willingnesss to believe (in the form of an act of the will) the evidence that already has been presented.

All I would want to see is one scripture, just one scripture, that says the willingness to believe (as opposed to believing) is a 'work'. I think the Bible is pretty clear that works are things that you do, not things that you think about. I think nearly the whole of Christianity has succumbed to the idea that thinking about doing good things is the same as doing them. Ergo, deciding to take God at His word must also be a great work, the 'living faith' in action. When really it is just simple faith alone, all by itself. Not a work. No effort must be exerted on the part of the believer, only to assent that it is true. It is the total absence of work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: All I would want to see is one scripture, just one scripture,

HP: I have spent some time in responding to your post, but I have chosen to scrap it as too long and cut to the chase.

If a intent of the heart is not necessary for belief or faith, you have but one option. That option is limited to both being necessitated. An intent of the heart is nothing more than the formation of a choice between two or more alternatives. If one has only one possible consequence for a given antecedent, the will is said to be necessitated. If there are two or more possible consequents for a given antecedent, and the will can choose between them it is said to be at liberty. Blame or praise can only be predicated where choice is involved, and where choice is involved, the formation of an intent must be made. Scripture places blame or praise squarely upon the intent of the heart.

A ‘work’ of man always starts with the formation of an intent and a chosen means to carry out that intent. Proof is that we are held accountable EVEN when we may not be able or circumstances may never arise that would allow for the act to be accomplished, yet God judges us according to our intents. Case in point. Adultery, by lusting after a women, even if the occasion never arises to carry out that desire. Hating ones brother is tantamount to murder, even if one never has the opportunity to carry out the actual crime. Sin or righteousness take place in the heart ANTECEDENT to any and all actions. Every moral action must be driven by an intent of the heart, which is nothing more than the very cornestone of every ‘work’ of formulating the intent by a choice we are the creators of.

The real crux of the matter lies hidden within this thought. If man could assemble enough facts, so as to eliminate any possibility of formulating the wrong idea, it would be impossible to please God, impossible to exercise faith, and impossible to eliminate the coercion of all knowledge and all subsequent intents, eliminating freedom of the will and love and morality in the process. God desires us to take the facts as He supplies them, through Scripture, reason, logic, and experience, and formulate intents upon our findings, as incomplete as we might find them at times. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” Faith cannot operate in the realm of absolute knowledge. There will always be room for uncertainties and yes even doubt ‘in a sense,’ where faith exists. If faith exist, absolute knowledge of the facts cannot, so what are you going to choose? Will it be freedom of the will and responsibility for the formulating of the intents of the heart, ‘works’ in the most infant stage of development, or will it be necessitated fatalism. The choice lies with you, and must be made in the absence of absolute knowledge.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't think we are even talking about the same thing anymore. Belief is not work. I have the scriptures behind me when I say this. Without faith it is impossible to please God. But without believing, it is impossible to have faith. If we are saved through faith, not of works, it should be readily apparent that you have to be saved before you can please God, not the other way around. I would not disagree that God judges us according to our works, according to our thoughts, according to our secret hidden motives that maybe we don't even admit to ourselves. But that is not how we are found to be worthy of the free gift of salvation. The grace of God was bestowed upon us while we were not worthy, nor are we now worthy just because God has shown mercy toward us. We need to stop and think what we are saying about our God when we limit the love of God to only those who will love Him back. We are not saved because God is pleased in us, we are saved because God is pleased in His Son.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: Belief is not work.

HP: What is belief? Is it mere apprehension of truth, or does it involve a choice of the will?

JN: If we are saved through faith, not of works, it should be readily apparent that you have to be saved before you can please God, not the other way around

.

HP:We please God in the very process of salvation as we fulfill the commands He gives us, i.e. to repent and believe. When God calls upon us to repent and believe, God is expecting us to exercise our wills in accordance to the truth we have received. Do you believe man’s will is passive or active in repentance and faith? If it is active, does not that require that we do something in order for it to be accomplished??

JN: I would not disagree that God judges us according to our works, according to our thoughts, according to our secret hidden motives that maybe we don't even admit to ourselves. But that is not how we are found to be worthy of the free gift of salvation.

HP: God has determined that we are found to be worthy of His grace as we comply with His conditions. As I have repeated stated, we are not saved on the account of our fulfilling of the conditions, nor is our fulfilling of them the grounds for our salvation. Just the same, we will not be saved apart from our fulfilling the conditions either.

JN: The grace of God was bestowed upon us while we were not worthy, nor are we now worthy just because God has shown mercy toward us.

HP: The grace of God has appeared to ALL men, not just the saved. In order for that grace to be made effective in our lives there is something that man must do, and agin that is to fulfill the conditions God has mandated for us to.

JN: We need to stop and think what we are saying about our God when we limit the love of God to only those who will love Him back. We are not saved because God is pleased in us, we are saved because God is pleased in His Son.

HP: Who in the world has said or implied that the love of God is limited to only those that will believe, other than possibly the Calvinists and semi-Calvinists on this list?? God even loves those in hell. God is love period. Just the same, the mere fact that God is pleased with His Son saves no one in particular. God has said unless WE fulfill the conditions He sets forth we cannot be saved. He has done His part, now it is up to us to fulfill His mandated conditions.

James, again you are left with just one of two possibilities. Either our wills are active in salvation or it is all of God. If it is all of God, everything, including the damnation of the damned, is predestined as well, and as such necessitated. That is a most horrible blight to pin on our Loving and Just God.

 

[James_Newman]

Does everything end up calvinism vs arminianism?

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

His faith is counted for righteousness, who's faith? Him that 'worketh not'. Faith, believing, is not a 'work'. It doesn't matter who's will is involved or who initiates it

HP: The grace of God has appeared to ALL men, not just the saved. In order for that grace to be made effective in our lives there is something that man must do, and agin that is to fulfill the conditions God has mandated for us to.

There is only one condition for an unsaved man, and it's not a work. I understand that you think all the commandments and picking up our cross are conditions for recieving the free gift of eternal life. But in reality these are conditions for those who already have recieved the free gift of eternal life to obtain the conditional prize of reigning with Jesus Christ (and escape judgment as a wicked slothful servant). Until you realize that they are not talking about the same thing, you will not be able to harmonize the scriptures without using the double-think that you keep trying to put on Romans 4. Faith is not works, it's plain as day. You will need to find a better way to reconcile Eph 2:8,9 with James 2:14.

 

[gekko]

"I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures"

wisdom is speaking here.
what substance is it that wisdom may "cause those that love me to inherit" ?
is it physical substance? physical treasures?

next verse: "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old."

so its the Lord's wisdom speaking here. its not physical substance. not a physical inherited substance. vs10 "reveive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold"
the Lord's wisdom isn't talking about any physical inherited substance.

now that we've got that figured out. you're probably wondering why im talking in proverbs 8. right?

well. faith is not works. i think we'ver got that clear. i hope. if not. please read scripture.

now. in hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

faith is a substance. what kind of substance? a substance of things hoped for.
faith is the evidence of things not seen.

i'll focus on the substance aspect.

relate hebrews 11:1 to proverbs 8:20-21.

do we have our own faith. do we obtain our own faith? i dont believe that. unless you can point it out in scripture elsewhere. until then...

"I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: that I may cause those that love me to inherit substance..."

we love the Lord. give our lives to him. etc. we will inherit that substance - because we genuinly loved wisdom. the Lord's wisdom. what substance? faith.

faith and belief may seem the same. but are different. belief comes from faith.

faith is God-given.

 

[drfuss]

Thanks for your inputs. Since whether having faith is a work is questioned by some, I have updated the belief descriptions to make it more clear.


1. Unconditional Security - Once saved, always saved even if you stop believing.
Works required? No
Heaven assured? Yes
Advocates - Charley Stanley, etc.

2. Continuing Security - If really saved, you will continue to believe.
Works required? No, only faith
Heaven assured? Yes
Advocates - SBC Faith and Message, etc.

3. Conditional Security - Eternally secure unless you choose to stop believing.
Works required? No, only faith
Heaven assured? Yes
Advocates - Some evangelical and pentecostal churches, etc.

4. Victorious Security - Secure as long as you live a victorious life, i.e. His spirit bearth witness with our spirit...
Works required? No, but faith plus works are part of the required victorious life.
Heaven assured? Yes, if living for Christ.
Advocates- Some evangelical and pentecostal churches, etc.

5, Grace and Works - God provides grace, we provide faith plus works.
Works required? Yes
Heaven assured? Maybe.
Advocates - Taught by many liberal churches, but church official theology may be any of the #1-4 beliefs listed above.

6. Grace, Works, Sacrements - God's grace, our works, church's sacrements.
Works required? Yes
Heaven assured? Yes, if faithful to Christ.
Advocates - Roman Catholic Church, etc.


Any comments?

 

[drfuss]

The following are some come comparisons and grouping of the beliefs:

1. Belief #1 is the only belief that does not require a person to be trusting Christ when they die to be saved. Since this is a very basic criteria for salvation, I consider Belief #1 to be the most separated belief from the others.

2. Belief #6 is the only one that requires church sacrements for salvation. I consider belief #6 to be the 2nd most separated belief.

3. Beliefs #5 & 6 are the only ones that requires faith and works for God's grace to be applied for salvation. Works is an important criteria that separates Beliefs #5 & 6 from all the others.

4. Beliefs #2,3,&4 can be grouped together as the only ones that believe all of the following: you must be trusting Christ when you die to be saved, works in addition to faith are not required for salvation, church sacrements are not required, and your salvation is secure as long as you trust Christ.

5. Belief #2 believes in OSAS while Beliefs #3 & 4 do not. However, consider a "Christian" that trusts and serves Christ for a few years, and then stops trusting Christ. Belief #2 says that person was not a Christian in the first place; Beliefs #3 & 4 says that Christian forfeited his salvation. For practical purposes, the results are the same. The real difference is only in the terminology, i.e. was the person really a Christian in first place.


Do you concur with these comparisons and groupings?

Comments?

 

[Darron Steele]

Could numbers 2 and 4 be merged?

Would not true faith generate works, and that this true faith will also cause you to continue to believe -- and will always be saved? That is what I see the Bible teaching.

 

[Darron Steele]

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Can you see how that in one sense we are saved apart from works, in the sense of doing anything 'meritorious' on our part, but we cannot be saved apart from works, thought of in the sense of 'fulfilling the conditions God has mandated for us to fulfill?'

I wish to point out that the governor is not omniscient, and needs to see external indications because s/he does not know the criminal's true thoughts. God is omniscient and is not limited by this: He knows what we think, and He has no need of external indications.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darron Steele: I wish to point out that the governor is not omniscient, and needs to see external indications because s/he does not know the criminal's true thoughts. God is omniscient and is not limited by this: He knows what we think, and He has no need of external indications.

Hi Darron,
May I point out that you and I are not omniscient either, and we are not privy to God’s Omniscient mind. What does it matter what God knows if you and I cannot know it as He does?? We are limited to a finite understanding that indeed is driven by eternal indications. God commands us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. One cannot examine themselves by what they cannot know or see, i.e., God’s Omniscience, but are commanded to examine ourselves by what we can see, i.e., our own internal and external indications.

 

[Darron Steele]

May I point out that you and I are not omniscient either, and we are not privy to God’s Omniscient mind. What does it matter what God knows if you and I cannot know it as He does?? We are limited to a finite understanding that indeed is driven by eternal indications. God commands us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. One cannot examine themselves by what they cannot know or see, i.e., God’s Omniscience, but are commanded to examine ourselves by what we can see, i.e., our own internal and external indications.

Oh, I understand that. However, the post of yours that I quoted and made my remark under suggested that God would require completed works of us in order to verify whether we have accepted the Gospel by faith or not. In human society, we need external signs, but God does not.

I show my faith by my works to others and to myself. However, God knew from the moment I accepted the Gospel that I had, and He did not need me to DO anything for Him to know it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: Does everything end up calvinism vs arminianism?

HP: James, I have tried to harmonize faith apart from works an faith without works, All I can see you and others doing is to retreat into the stronghold of your prooftexts in Romans 4:4-5, but I do not see you harmonizing it with the words of James, “faith without works is dead being alone.” Have I missed your attempt to harmonize this passage with your proof texts?

When one recognizes that works are thought of in two distinct senses, one can make sense out of both passages. No, we do not work for our salvation, in the sense of the performance of meritorious works, but we do work in the sense of ‘not without which.’ I only see faith and belief on our part as being a ‘work’ thought of in the sense of “not without which,' due to the fact that we are proactive, in that our 'wills' must form an intent apart from force or coercion, of our own free will. We must exercise our will voluntarily in both faith or belief and repentance. There is something we must do in order for God to apply the blood to our hearts and lives. It is in yielding our wills in voluntary compliance to the commands and conditions God has set forth. Although that obedience is again not meritorious, it is none the less something we must do in order for God to pardon and cleanse our hearts.

If you do not believe we do, then there remains but one option. When one takes that option, which is none other than force or coercion from God, one must also accept the logical ramifications that are necessitated by such a belief. Predestination of the damned is impossible to avoid if man is passive in faith and belief as well as repentance. God cannot be shown not to be a respecter of persons if in fact it is all predestined apart from the active involvement of the choices Scripture indicates are man’s to make.

 

[J. Jump]

All I can see you and others doing is to retreat into the stronghold of your prooftexts in Romans 4:4-5, but I do not see you harmonizing it with the words of James, “faith without works is dead being alone.”

The only ones that have difficulty harmonizing them is folks that think they are dealing with the same subject. When you know they are speaking of two entirely different subjects there is nothing to harmonize. They don't harmonize, because they can't, but they do compiment each other perfectly.

And that has been shown to you at least once from myself. I don't want to speak for James, but I'm fairly confident that he would share the same with you.

 

[James_Newman]

HP: James, I have tried to harmonize faith apart from works an faith without works, All I can see you and others doing is to retreat into the stronghold of your prooftexts in Romans 4:4-5, but I do not see you harmonizing it with the words of James, “faith without works is dead being alone.” Have I missed your attempt to harmonize this passage with your proof texts?

I'll open another thread to show how I would reconcile Romans 3 and 4 with James 2. We should be able to agree that these books are both written by the Holy Spirit through these men, and that reconciling them shouldn't require making one of them to be a liar.

 

[drfuss]

Darron writes:
"Could numbers 2 and 4 be merged?

Would not true faith generate works, and that this true faith will also cause you to continue to believe -- and will always be saved? That is what I see the Bible teaching."

Thank you for posting.

I am trying to list the various beliefs that different people believe concerning salvation assurance. My propose is to identify the similarities, differences and groupings of the various beliefs. Hopefully , this would help us to understand where others are coming form when they present different opinions.

What we see the Bible teaching can be very different than how others see it. In my posts, I have tried not to indicate which of the six beliefs that I believe. So I have tried to avoid debating about what I believe.

I realize that I have not made my objectives too clear. On the other hand, maybe it is unrealistic to expect people on a board where debating is the norm, to discuss these beliefs without debating them.

IMHO, it is more meaningful to realize that there are at least six beliefs on salvation assurance rather than just Calvinist and Arminian. One of the problems on the BB debates is that some think all Calvinists are the same and all Arminians are the same. IMHO, using the six beliefs would permit better communication.

However, I am not going to continue trying to discourage debate between the beliefs. I now realize it was unrealistic to expect people to discuss the beliefs without debating them.

Onward.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Drfuss: However, I am not going to continue trying to discourage debate between the beliefs. I now realize it was unrealistic to expect people to discuss the beliefs without debating them.

Onward.

HP: One again has to define ones terms if we are to realize any significant improvement in understanding one another. How about joining the debate? Is faith, belief, and repentance apart from any and all efforts of mans? Is there anything man must do or cooperate in regards to these issues, or is man just a passive recipient of all three?

 

[BobRyan]

Works is mentioned in Romans 3 as "Works apart from faith" and is condemned.

But in Romans 2 and 6 and 8 and in James 2 we see "Faith THAT works".

Even "belief itself" is said by Christ to be works.

James 2 states that faith apart from works is "dead and is not saving faith" it is NOT the "saved by grace through FAITH" avenue of the Gospel!

Those who imagine that such faith is "works" have placed their hope on presumption not faith.

But the TWO JUSTIFICATIONS topic JN started applies here as he compares Paul to James.

Justification past is the one many are happy with (it is mentioned in Romans 3 and 5).

But the Justification "future" Paul defines in Romans 2:11-13 and that James shows in James 2 and that Daniel shows in Daniel 7 and that Paul shows in 2Cor 5:10 -- these is a concept that is not welcome among many Christians today.

"the books were opened" and "ALL are judged for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad".

As Peter said

1 Peter 4
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right

 

[BobRyan]

3. Conditional Security - Eternally secure unless you choose to stop believing.
Works required? No, only faith
Heaven assured? Yes
Advocates - Some evangelical and pentecostal churches, etc.

4. Victorious Security - Secure as long as you live a victorious life, i.e. His spirit bearth witness with our spirit...
Works required? No, but faith plus works are part of the required victorious life.
Heaven assured? Yes, if living for Christ.
Advocates- Some evangelical and pentecostal churches, etc.

5, Grace and Works - God provides grace, we provide faith plus works.
Works required? Yes
Heaven assured? Maybe.
Advocates - Taught by many liberal churches, but church official theology may be any of the #1-4 beliefs listed above.

3,4,5 all seem to be represented in the Bible.

5 "if works includes belief" is seen in Romans 10.

3 and 4 are seen in Romans 11 and in Romans 2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Darron Steele]

2. Continuing Security - If really saved, you will continue to believe.
Works required? No, only faith
Heaven assured? Yes
Advocates - SBC Faith and Message, etc.

4. Victorious Security - Secure as long as you live a victorious life, i.e. His spirit bearth witness with our spirit...
Works required? No, but faith plus works are part of the required victorious life.
Heaven assured? Yes, if living for Christ.
Advocates- Some evangelical and pentecostal churches, etc.

I believe that these are taught by the Bible simultaneously.

#4 is taught by:
Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love” (ASV). James 2:14-26 should be understood in this light also.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (KJV). We are saved by faith without works in order to do the works God prepared for us.
Philippians 2:12b "ocupaos en vuestra salvación con temor y temblor" (RVR 1909/1960/1995, LBLA, RVA) = "you-busy-you in your salvation with fear and tremble."
Our salvation by faith will go to work.

#2 is taught by 1 John 2:19a "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us" (ASV). We have an `if-then' statement meaning `If they had really been Christians, then they would have continued to be Christians like us.' This is the only actual case in Scripture where people actually leave the Christian community -- and in this case its reasons are explained. Hence, it seems that the faith that saves us is one that will keep us going.

Hence, I believe both #2 and #4 to be taught by the Scriptures.