Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[BobRyan]

True - but we see in the case of sinless beings who sinned - and some who did not -- that they were not simply following created desires or inherent flaws. They were making decisions despite their sinnless nature.

When we look at Saul persecuter of the saints turned Paul -- and we contrast that to King Saul turned the enemy of God - we see sinful people ALSO making choices.

 

[BobRyan]

Duplicate removed

 

[Dan V.]

True - but we see in the case of sinless beings who sinned - and some who did not -- that they were not simply following created desires or inherent flaws. They were making decisions despite their sinnless nature.

When we look at Saul persecuter of the saints turned Paul -- and we contrast that to King Saul turned the enemy of God - we see sinful people ALSO making choices.

BR:"....but we see in the case of sinless beings who sinned...."

DV: The only sinless being who sinned was Adam.

BR: "......and some who did not..."

DV: Incorrect. "...for all have sinned..." - Romans 3.

The only sinless man was Christ.

BR: "...They were making decisions despite their sinnless nature..."

Incorrect. All are born with a sinful nature. Psalm:51:5..."Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 3:23 "....For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;....."

Dan V.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dan V.,

BobRyan knew Romans 3:10 and 3:23 so well. He agreed that we are all have sinned. Of course, we all received sin in our mother's womb. Because Adam sinned and he died, so, sin passed upon all people - Romans 5:12.

Bob's point was, he talked about all men have the freewill for rebel against God, and disobedience God. Adam was the first person made his own freewill decision and choice. God doesn't cause or make him sin. Adam did.

Same with Lucifer. He was perfect, have no sin. Lucifer was created by God. Lucifer's duty was to guard God in the heaven. One day, Lucifer rebelled against God, by being exalted himself above God. That was his own freewill decision. God doesn't cause Lucifer to sin. Lucifer made his decision by commit sin against God. Also, 1/3 angels of God's angels were followed Lucifer. Because they made their own decision that were there freewill decision.

We all have freewill with decision and choice. God doesn't force us to make decision. We are all responsible to respond back to God in our own decision.

We are not 'total depravity' as what Calvinism teaching. We all are of course born in dead spiritual comes form Adam(Romans 5:12). But, this doesn't mean that we cannot able to reply or respond to God. We all have brain. Brain is for making decision. God created our brain, because we all have own minds. We have the right to making decision and choiuce.

Sad, most people are end up in hell (Matt. 7:13), because they reject God's offering of Jesus Christ - salvation. They went in their own way and made their own decision. Also, All people are on the way to hell because they already received sin came from Adam(Romans 5:12).

Romans chapter 1 telling us, God shows the world of earth things that, He created, there is no excuse for people for seeing the clear things that God created, they rejected God and Christ. They went in their own way in their freewill decision.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: sin passed upon all people - Romans 5:12.

HP: Are you certain that is what Scriptures say? Try reading it again.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

HP,

Romans 5:12 clearly telling us, all men died because of Adam sinned. When Adam sinned, he tasted of spiritual death, so, death passed upon all people to death because of sin. We did not do sin, I mean we commit the very first sin at infant baby or little kid. We ALREADY received sin while we were in mother's womb as what King David said. We ALL will die for sure no question, why? Because we all have sinned come from Adam. We all born from the first Adam. So, we have to born again from the second Adam - Jesus Christ- spiritual birth.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You get no Amens from me on your last post DPT. :tear:

 

[Dan V.]

Dan V.,

BobRyan knew Romans 3:10 and 3:23 so well. He agreed that we are all have sinned. Of course, we all received sin in our mother's womb. Because Adam sinned and he died, so, sin passed upon all people - Romans 5:12.

Bob's point was, he talked about all men have the freewill for rebel against God, and disobedience God. Adam was the first person made his own freewill decision and choice. God doesn't cause or make him sin. Adam did.

Same with Lucifer. He was perfect, have no sin. Lucifer was created by God. Lucifer's duty was to guard God in the heaven. One day, Lucifer rebelled against God, by being exalted himself above God. That was his own freewill decision. God doesn't cause Lucifer to sin. Lucifer made his decision by commit sin against God. Also, 1/3 angels of God's angels were followed Lucifer. Because they made their own decision that were there freewill decision.

We all have freewill with decision and choice. God doesn't force us to make decision. We are all responsible to respond back to God in our own decision.

We are not 'total depravity' as what Calvinism teaching. We all are of course born in dead spiritual comes form Adam(Romans 5:12). But, this doesn't mean that we cannot able to reply or respond to God. We all have brain. Brain is for making decision. God created our brain, because we all have own minds. We have the right to making decision and choiuce.

Sad, most people are end up in hell (Matt. 7:13), because they reject God's offering of Jesus Christ - salvation. They went in their own way and made their own decision. Also, All people are on the way to hell because they already received sin came from Adam(Romans 5:12).

Romans chapter 1 telling us, God shows the world of earth things that, He created, there is no excuse for people for seeing the clear things that God created, they rejected God and Christ. They went in their own way in their freewill decision.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

'

Last time I checked, dead men are not very responsive. Being spiritually dead is the equivalent of hating God. A man can not love who he already hates. God has to make him alive (John3)

Dan V.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dan V.,

Romans 10:14 tells us, how can they hear the gospel without a preacher? God commands Christians go and to witness gospel to lost people. When a person hears the gospel, I am sure that the Holy Spirit is working on person's heart like as Rev. 3:20 telling us, Christ is knocking the door(heart). Holy Spirit doesn't force person to make decision. Every person make own decision and choice. Also, we can resist the Holy Spirit. Like as I am disagree with Calvinism's teaching one point of the five points- 'Irresistible Grace'. We can resist against the Holy Spirit if we want to. Because, we all have freewill choice with decision.

Christ/Holy Spirit cannot 'break into' person's house into the door(Rev. 3:20), unless, person is willing to surrender or yield up to Christ, person is the responsiblity to respond back to God after hear the gospel first.

True, we all were born death(spiritual death) before we born again, that we were dead. But, it don't mean that we cannot respond back to God for salvation. God only revealing us by his creation, also, use Christians to witnessing the gospel.

Our responsible to respond back to God after we hear the gospel.

True, God does draw all people to Christ, but, He doesn't force all person to accept Christ. All people have choices and decision. Unless till a person finally yield up to Christ and ask Christ for forgive and received him into heart then to be saved - Romans 10:9,10, 13; and Rev. 3:20.

By the way, Rev. 3:20 is not always focus on salvation. It also speak toward Church(believers), that Christ desires to have fellowship with them. Many of us do niot want Christ to take control our life, we want to do ourselves own ways, not need Christ's help. And also, not having relationship with Christ. That why, most of us are lukewarm. Many Christians leave Christ out, and go in their own ways of life, many of them are aspostasy and later become lose at the end, and their names shall be blot out of the book of life(Rev. 2:10-11; 3:5).

In Christ
'Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: all men died because of Adam sinned.

HP: How about reading it one more time all the way through. The last part of the verse tells us why death passed upon all men, and it is not because of Adam’s sin.

There was little book I read one entitled. “Don’t Blame it All on Adam.” As I recall there was much truth in such a small book.

 

[pops]

Works

It has been a few years since I stopped by - surprised my pw still active! - Anyway could someone please tell me which work it was that saved you? This is marvelous just do some task, perform some service, give some amount of money (how much does salvation cost [I think this question has already been asked- look it up!] I am retired and don't have a lot?) I could write a book of answers 'Required tasks to save your soul $14.95 plus S&H).
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God ! That means you can do nothing of yourself least you boast.!
What was the answer to the question 'What must I do to be saved?'
My favorite author (a Presbyterian!) and his mentor started off when talking to others about Jesus saying: Suppose you died today and upon arriving in heaven you came upon Jesus and He asked you 'By what right do you have to enter my kingdom?' What would you say?
Nothing you can do can earn you a ticket to Heaven its rags filthy rags period it is what He did on Calvary that makes the difference! He the sinless one took upon Himself the sins of the world both past present and future so that when you come to Him asking forgiveness and say Lord forgive me a sinner then He will say all is forgiven now go and proclaim this good news.
'No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the law of good works, for it is by the law that "we become conscious of sin" Romans 3:20

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pops: 'No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the law of good works, for it is by the law that "we become conscious of sin" Romans 3:20

HP: Greetings Pops. You will be glad to know that there is not a soul, body, or spirit on this board that believes that one is declared righteous in the eyes of God as a direct result of working for their salvation. All is still well on this board. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Greetings Pops. You will be glad to know that there is not a soul, body, or spirit on this board that believes that one is declared righteous in the eyes of God as a direct result of working for their salvation. All is still well on this board. :thumbs:

Indeed that is good news!

 

[BobRyan]

'

Last time I checked, dead men are not very responsive. Being spiritually dead is the equivalent of hating God. A man can not love who he already hates. God has to make him alive (John3)

Dan V.

The dead can not "harden their hearts" as Pharaoh did NOR "be CONVICTED" as God does for the world in John 16.

 

[BobRyan]

WHY is it that Paul writes

Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB

Rom 3:31 NKJV
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom 3:31 NIV
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Rom 3:31 KJV
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 3:31 YLT
31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.



The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.





Which 10 Commandments?

Rom 13:9For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: WHY is it that Paul writes…..

HP: That we might examine ourselves to see if in fact we are obedient children, to the end that we might ‘see if we are of the faith.’ By comparing our intents and subsequent actions to the demand of the law, we find whether or not we are dead to it by and through obedience, or if we are alive to it by and through disobedience. If we are dead, we shall live, but if we are alive, we shall surely die. It is indeed a backward kingdom.

 

[BobRyan]

James addresses this point with his "mirror" analogy.

 

[BobRyan]

Linda addresses this - but on the OSAS thread instead of here..

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1107626&postcount=210