Salvation Equation

[Van]

Revealing Grace + Repentance + Faith + Election + Spiritual Baptism + Conversion + Indwelling = Salvation + Works

Where:

Revealing Grace = hearing and understanding the call through the gospel of Christ.

Repentance + Faith = turning from our self-centered life to trusting in Christ alone with our life, now and forever.

Election = God choosing for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

Spiritual Baptism = God sets a person apart by placing them spiritually “in Christ.”

Conversion = Once “in Christ” a person undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises “in Christ” a new creation, created for good works. It is a spiritual work of God, not us changing our minds.

Indwelling = After God puts us spiritually in Christ, He seals us with the Holy Spirit forever. The Holy Spirit provides each born again (converted) believer with light to understand the meat of God’s word, awareness of the will of God, and brings to mind our sins such that we are convicted. As we grow more mature, we will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[canadyjd]

Revealing Grace + Repentance + Faith + Election + Spiritual Baptism + Conversion + Indwelling = Salvation + Works....

God + God's purpose + God's plan + God's creation + God's election + God's predestinating + God's sacrifice of His Son + God's (Holy Spirit) regenerating + God's gospel + God's calling + God's (Holy Spirit) convicting the truth of our sin and truth of gospel + God's gift of faith + man's response (repentance/faith in Jesus/good works which God had ordained before the foundation of the world, that we would walk in them) to God's gracious intervention in their life + God's Holy Spirit indwelling to teach and mature us in our faith + God's actively keeping His chosen ones in His hands + God's judgement + God's Kingdom coming to full glory.

peace to youraying:

 

[Van]

Lets unpack these equations:

God + God's purpose + God's plan which includes individually choosing the Word as His Lamb, His Redeemer and therefore corporately electing the target group, anyone who believes in Christ. All these steps are before the foundation of the world.

God's creation including the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fall.

God's sacrifice of His Son providing the propitiation for all mankind, + God's gospel as the power of God unto salvation + hearing and understanding the gospel

Our individual response, putting our faith in Christ + God crediting our faith as righteousness + God setting us apart in Christ which is our individual election for salvation + regeneration (being made alive, born again together with Christ + circumcision of Christ + new creation created for good works + indwelling of Holy Spirit forever + God keeping us for our inheritance by protecting our faith + progressive sanctification where we can earn rewards + ultimate sanctification at the second coming of Christ where we are resurrected in glorified bodies and meet Christ in the air.

 

[freeatlast]

Revealing Grace + Repentance + Faith + Election + Spiritual Baptism + Conversion + Indwelling = Salvation + Works

Where:

Revealing Grace = hearing and understanding the call through the gospel of Christ.

Repentance + Faith = turning from our self-centered life to trusting in Christ alone with our life, now and forever.

Election = God choosing for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

Spiritual Baptism = God sets a person apart by placing them spiritually “in Christ.”

Conversion = Once “in Christ” a person undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises “in Christ” a new creation, created for good works. It is a spiritual work of God, not us changing our minds.

Indwelling = After God puts us spiritually in Christ, He seals us with the Holy Spirit forever. The Holy Spirit provides each born again (converted) believer with light to understand the meat of God’s word, awareness of the will of God, and brings to mind our sins such that we are convicted. As we grow more mature, we will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.

Van I disagree. First from the point of salvation we exibit the fruit of the spirit. It may not be as mature as it gets, but it has to be there or no conversion took place.
Second we do have to change our minds and make a choice towards Him for salvation. God is not forcing us or pumping repentance and saving faith into us like greese into a zerk. We have a part in the process.

 

[mandym]

How about God opens a person heart and they receive His grace of salvation which include a new mind and heart, the indwelling of the Spirit etc. All of these debates and discussions on which comes first and what order things fall in are not found in scripture and are unnecessary.

 

[glfredrick]

Van, what does propitiation mean?

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Van,
Based on some of your equation it seems like you’d get along well with Karl Barth!-lol- but I do have to re-ask glfred’s question—how exactly are you using the term propitiation. Based on your use of it—there would be no hell—is this your intention?

 

[Van]

Well what does propititition mean? How do we determine of the meaning of a word that appears in our English translations. Do we not find out what the underlying Greek word or words are and then look at what the lexicon says, and then at how the word is used in other places in the Bible. Well, at least that is how I would start.

So the word (transliterated) is Hilasmos and means something that appeases. The thing of course is Christ for He became the propitiation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. So Jesus is the means of salvation for the whole world. Now how you ask does a person receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's propitiation. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. That is why as ambassadors we beg the lost, "be reconciled to God. Trust and obey for there is no other way, He is the way, the truth and the life.

If you understand my view to be the same as Karl Barth, either you do not understand my position or his. See my thread on Corporate Election.

 

[Van]

What about God opens the heart or eyes or whatever. Calvinists claim this means God supernaturally alters the person so they are no longer suffer from total spiritual inability, but that view is simply read into scripture to create claimed support for false doctrine.

Every teacher has "opened the eyes" of students, by providing information in a way they could understand. Now this information could be provided supernaturally, such as in a vision, i.e. Peter's dream, or it could be by Jesus simply explaining to Peter how Peter would die in the service of His Lord, John 21.

How were Lydia's eyes opened. She had heard and learned from the Father, for she worshipped God. Therefore, when she heard the gospel, the mystery of the coming of the Messiah was presented in a way that opened her eyes and she believed.

This is an example of how the minimalist principle of interpretation works, what is the simplest, most straightforward view making the fewest assumption. Once we start putting whole sentences between the lines, we have stopped trusting in scripture and started trusting in ourselves.

 

[Van]

Hi Freeatlast, your view has no biblical support. Note all the passages where "babes in Christ" do not exhibit any fruit, having not yet learned from the indwelt Spirit. Now some people experience a changed life within days, while others, especially without someone coming along side to disciple them, might go for a long time still behaving like men of the flesh. Yes, I agree if conversion does not change your life its a red flag that you might not be "of the faith." But lets not put a 24 hour stop watch on it.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The instant I was born of God I knew three things:

1. Jesus is God
2. The Bible is the Word of God
3. Fellowship with true Christians

I immediately knew to pray. I worshipped Jesus. I recognized Jesus as the Creator of heaven and earth. I loved the Bible with every fiber of my being, and longed for fellowship with Christians.

This all within a nano-second of being born from above.

That's alot for a baby eh?

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Well what does propititition mean? How do we determine of the meaning of a word that appears in our English translations. .

Well I personally get out my Greek Bible and use the 2 years of Greek I was required to take so I wan’t misuse words in debate forums-- & take away from my main point. Sorry you missed that the Barth comment was a joke—but carry on with your personal equation.

 

[freeatlast]

Hi Freeatlast, your view has no biblical support. Note all the passages where "babes in Christ" do not exhibit any fruit, having not yet learned from the indwelt Spirit. Now some people experience a changed life within days, while others, especially without someone coming along side to disciple them, might go for a long time still behaving like men of the flesh. Yes, I agree if conversion does not change your life its a red flag that you might not be "of the faith." But lets not put a 24 hour stop watch on it.

Sorry but there is an immediate change at salvation. The problem is that not all are saved. We are told that at salvation old things pass away and all things become new. While it is true that there remains a process of sanctification that continues throughout our lives, also true is a clear change at salvation. This is why we can know them by their fruits and no one who is born again continue to practice sin according to scripture. 1John 3

 

[Van]

How long does it take to conclude a person is no longer "practicing sin." Or just because the old things have passed away and new things have come, 2 Cor. 5:17, does that mean we stop acting like men of flesh? How about the Galatians as in 1:6? How about 1 Cor 3:1-3.

As I said, your view has merit, but misses the reality presented in scripture as to timing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Posting error in thread after thread does not change it into truth.Your "formula" was wrong last week, it is wrong this week,and it will be wrong next week. Others are seeing this same pattern but you are not at all concerned.

 

[freeatlast]

How long does it take to conclude a person is no longer "practicing sin." Or just because the old things have passed away and new things have come, 2 Cor. 5:17, does that mean we stop acting like men of flesh? How about the Galatians as in 1:6? How about 1 Cor 3:1-3.

As I said, your view has merit, but misses the reality presented in scripture as to timing.

Van practicing sin is not about time. it is about character and the new birth. In 2Cor 5:17 ir means we stop practicing sin. gal 6:1 is not about practice. it is aout a single issue and someone needing help. 1Cor three is about being divided on issues, not about practicing sin.
No one who is born of God pracitces sin. 1John 3:9-10

It is not about frequency. It is about character. It is out of character for a believer to be sinning. Some sinners are blatant with just about every action and every type of sin. Others are less so and just do it on certain occasions or what is considered small sins, but the sin is them while for the true believer righteousness is them. It is their practice. I think it can be better seen in verse 10 of 1John through contrast.
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

A true Christian lives a daily life that exhibits righteousness while a non believer lives a life that exhibits unrighteousness. It does not take great shocking sins, or even a great number, just sin in general. For the sinner their heart is not set on living godly.
I use this example to show the contrast. For a believer to sin it shocks those around him/her. In fact it shocks the believer as it is not their practice to sin. For a non believer (sinner) to sin no one is shocked because that is just them. More important they (the sinner) are not shocked. They sin with impunity. It is just the man thing or we are all human or we are all adults or no excuse at all. it is just the way thye are. No shame, no conviction. At their sin God never enters their mind. They do it many times just to get a laugh or to show authority. They justify their sin within and do it many times not even knowing they did it. Sin comes natural to them. It is their nature, but like I said it does not take a constant stream. It is not about how often or how sinful the sin. It is about character.
No one is shocked when the office clown tells a dirty joke or brags about last nights date, uses profanity, tells a lie or what ever because everyone knows this is the character of this person.
However for the true believer to sin everyone is shocked if they see or hear anything contrary to godliness from him/her because it is just not their character (practice) to sin and for the believer their sin immediately brings sorrow towards God as their sin is against their character.

 

[Van]

Freeatlast, the issue is not "practicing sin" it is about manifesting the fruits of the Spirit.

I have cited passage after passage that demonstrates my view. The Galatians were not "practicing sin" because they thought their works based view was in accordance with the will of God, but it was sin all the same, and did not manifest the fruit of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 is not about being divided on issues, but about not being able yet to handle spiritual meat, because they were still "manifesting" the works of the flesh.

We do not significantly disagree that no one born of God practices sin, but it takes time for the Spirit to prune us through shame and repentance.

 

[glfredrick]

Well what does propititition mean? How do we determine of the meaning of a word that appears in our English translations. Do we not find out what the underlying Greek word or words are and then look at what the lexicon says, and then at how the word is used in other places in the Bible. Well, at least that is how I would start.

So the word (transliterated) is Hilasmos and means something that appeases. The thing of course is Christ for He became the propitiation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. So Jesus is the means of salvation for the whole world. Now how you ask does a person receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's propitiation. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. That is why as ambassadors we beg the lost, "be reconciled to God. Trust and obey for there is no other way, He is the way, the truth and the life.

If you understand my view to be the same as Karl Barth, either you do not understand my position or his. See my thread on Corporate Election.

That's why I (we) are asking. I KNOW how to define and concord propitiation. I want to know how YOU do that, and exactly what you mean when you use the term.

It can be used in more than one way. I'll not go into details until I hear your take. So far, you are using one of the ways.

 

[Van]

I have told you what the word means as used in the Bible, just one way. Words have meaning. Those that say the same word means this here and the opposite there are making scripture to no effect, subsitituting the author's intended message with their own invention.

 

[freeatlast]

I have told you what the word means as used in the Bible, just one way. Words have meaning. Those that say the same word means this here and the opposite there are making scripture to no effect, subsitituting the author's intended message with their own invention.

Van this is not correct as a word can mean different things in different places in the bible. Context holds a great deal of authority in this matter.