Salvation Equation

[freeatlast]

Freeatlast, the issue is not "practicing sin" it is about manifesting the fruits of the Spirit.

I have cited passage after passage that demonstrates my view. The Galatians were not "practicing sin" because they thought their works based view was in accordance with the will of God, but it was sin all the same, and did not manifest the fruit of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 is not about being divided on issues, but about not being able yet to handle spiritual meat, because they were still "manifesting" the works of the flesh.

We do not significantly disagree that no one born of God practices sin, but it takes time for the Spirit to prune us through shame and repentance.

Being divided on an issie does not mean there is no evidence of the fruit of the spirit. It is just not fully grown. Christians will show forth some evidence of the fruit even if they fail at a point in time although the fruit is not fully mature.
I do agree that time is needed for a maturity to come about, but I am suggesting that from the point of salvation the change is seen and that change is the beginning of the fruit mentioned although not mature.

 

[Van]

Freeatlast, please demonstrate that a word can mean one thing here and the opposite thing there. You cannot because the premise is a fiction invented by men to make scripture to no effect. Folks, what really happens is word meanings are changed to support doctrine. Choice becomes non-choice, all refers to everything imaginable here and yet only refers narrowly to what is directly in view there. LOL

The hermeneutic principle of "coherency" says use as few meanings as possible, especially in light of word being in the same form and used by the same author. Often times words have shades of meanings such as faith or faithfulness depending on context but context does not turn faith into unbelief. Only a wordsmith on a mission would do that.

 

[Van]

Hi Freeatlast,
"I do agree that time is needed for a maturity to come about, but I am suggesting that from the point of salvation the change is seen and that change is the beginning of the fruit mentioned although not mature."

The above is certainly true of some people but not all people as demonstrated by scripture.

 

[glfredrick]

I have told you what the word means as used in the Bible, just one way. Words have meaning. Those that say the same word means this here and the opposite there are making scripture to no effect, subsitituting the author's intended message with their own invention.

You are incorrect. One of the first lessons of both theology and hermeneutics is that words have USAGE based in context not "meaning" as a stand-alone function.

I am again asking you to detail your use of the word propitiation. I'm beginning to believe that you cannot.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Freeatlast, please demonstrate that a word can mean one thing here and the opposite thing there. You cannot because the premise is a fiction invented by men to make scripture to no effect. Folks, what really happens is word meanings are changed to support doctrine. Choice becomes non-choice, all refers to everything imaginable here and yet only refers narrowly to what is directly in view there. LOL.

You really have no idea how the Greek language works---do you? Consider the term peirazo—James 1:13 says God will never do it; Heb 11:17 gives an example of God actually doing it. Why—b/c the term can mean something completely different based on the context. Now—you’ve obviously put time into your personal theological views, & I commend you for this (b/c it shows you understand the importance of Scriptural study)---but your lack of understanding in certain areas is causing you overall equation to fall short.

 

[freeatlast]

Freeatlast, please demonstrate that a word can mean one thing here and the opposite thing there. You cannot because the premise is a fiction invented by men to make scripture to no effect. Folks, what really happens is word meanings are changed to support doctrine. Choice becomes non-choice, all refers to everything imaginable here and yet only refers narrowly to what is directly in view there. LOL

The hermeneutic principle of "coherency" says use as few meanings as possible, especially in light of word being in the same form and used by the same author. Often times words have shades of meanings such as faith or faithfulness depending on context but context does not turn faith into unbelief. Only a wordsmith on a mission would do that.

What I said it that a word can have different meanings, and sometimes it is positive and sometimes it is negitive. Here is what I mean.

Let me just give one example. We are to love others and love is good and of God, but not all love is good. This love is evil.
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
So this is why I said it depends on the context.

 

[canadyjd]

Lets unpack these equations:

God + God's purpose + God's plan which includes individually choosing the Word as His Lamb, His Redeemer and therefore corporately electing the target group, anyone who believes in Christ. All these steps are before the foundation of the world.

God's plan includes chosing individuals, by name, for salvation before the foundation of the world... not a "target group" as you say.

Predestination is specific to the individual chosen/elected for salvation.

BTW, the purpose of my "equation" was to put the emphasis on God when it comes to salvation. Man responds to God's intervention in His life, but is unable to do so without God's intervention in his life.

peace to youraying:

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

god's plan includes chosing individuals, by name, for salvation before the foundation of the world... Not a "target group" as you say.

Predestination is specific to the individual chosen/elected for salvation.

Btw, the purpose of my "equation" was to put the emphasis on god when it comes to salvation. Man responds to god's intervention in his life, but is unable to do so without god's intervention in his life.

Peace to youraying:

amen!!!!!!!!!

 

[freeatlast]

God's plan includes chosing individuals, by name, for salvation before the foundation of the world... not a "target group" as you say.

Predestination is specific to the individual chosen/elected for salvation.

BTW, the purpose of my "equation" was to put the emphasis on God when it comes to salvation. Man responds to God's intervention in His life, but is unable to do so without God's intervention in his life.

peace to youraying:

So we have no choice but to be saved, correct?

 

[canadyjd]

So we have no choice but to be saved, correct?

I'm not sure of your question. If the question is "will those whom God has chosen/elected for salvation be saved?", then yes, God's plan for salvation for that person will come to pass.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

I'm not sure of your question. If the question is "will those whom God has chosen/elected for salvation be saved?", then yes, God's plan for salvation for that person will come to pass.

peace to youraying:

No disrespect but I think you understood my question.
My question is do we have a choice to be saved or not to be saved? Are you saying that God makes us get saved?

 

[canadyjd]

No disrespect but I think you understood my question.

No disrespect, but please don't presume to know what I understood or didn't, especially since I specifically told you I wasn't sure of what you were saying.

My question is do we have a choice to be saved or not to be saved? Are you saying that God makes us get saved?

The unbeliever has a choice to accept or reject God, either from His general revelation which goes to all men but saves none (since all reject), or from His special revelation which is found in the person of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Those who hear the special revelation of the gospel have a choice to believe or reject Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. All would reject this special revelation (just as they reject general revelation) if not for God's intervention in the lives of those He has elected for salvation.

For those God has elected for salvation, God, Holy Spirit brings them to the truth of the gospel and they "choose" Christ as a response to God's intervention in their lives.

So, to answer your questions (as I understand them)...

1. Yes, men have a choice to accept or reject Christ for salvation. All reject unless God intervenes in their lives.

2. No, God does not "make us" get saved (you seem to be implying God made us against our wills), but God intervenes in the lives of His elect, by the power of Holy Spirit, so as to insure they will respond with repentance and faith.

Thus, my "equation" for salvation puts almost all the emphasis on God, and very little emphasis on man's response to what God has done.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

My head hurts after trying to read all those equations.

 

[freeatlast]

No disrespect, but please don't presume to know what I understood or didn't, especially since I specifically told you I wasn't sure of what you were saying.The unbeliever has a choice to accept or reject God, either from His general revelation which goes to all men but saves none (since all reject), or from His special revelation which is found in the person of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Those who hear the special revelation of the gospel have a choice to believe or reject Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. All would reject this special revelation (just as they reject general revelation) if not for God's intervention in the lives of those He has elected for salvation.

For those God has elected for salvation, God, Holy Spirit brings them to the truth of the gospel and they "choose" Christ as a response to God's intervention in their lives.

So, to answer your questions (as I understand them)...

1. Yes, men have a choice to accept or reject Christ for salvation. All reject unless God intervenes in their lives.

2. No, God does not "make us" get saved (you seem to be implying God made us against our wills), but God intervenes in the lives of His elect, by the power of Holy Spirit, so as to insure they will respond with repentance and faith.

Thus, my "equation" for salvation puts almost all the emphasis on God, and very little emphasis on man's response to what God has done.

peace to youraying:

You are in politics, correct? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

My head hurts after trying to read all those equations.

Let's send them to Washington as they are on about the same level of the political rhetoric. Yes means no, absolute means choice, choice means no possible way. The politicians can handle this. Just ask them.

 

[canadyjd]

You are in politics, correct? :smilewinkgrin:

No, I'm not in politics. You really know how to hit a guy below the belt...:smilewinkgrin:

Did I answer your questions?

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

No, I'm not in politics. You really know how to hit a guy below the belt...:smilewinkgrin:

Did I answer your questions?

peace to youraying:

well if you are a politician yes, but if not then no. It was a simple question that requires a simple answer. If God predestines individual people to salvation then does that mean we have no choice? If that is not understandable then can God's predestination be overruled by the one being predestined? Both are the same question and require a simple yes or no.

 

[canadyjd]

...It was a simple question that requires a simple answer. If God predestines individual people to salvation then does that mean we have no choice?

I answered you directly. Every individual chosen/elected by God makes a "choice" to accept Christ as Savior.

If that is not understandable then can God's predestination be overruled by the one being predestined?

I answered you directly. Every person God has chosen for salvation will respond to God's intervention in their lives by coming to salvation in Christ.

"Predestination" cannot be "overruled" by man because it is an act of God. That doesn't change the fact that men "choose" Christ as a response to God intervening in their lives by power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

Let's send them to Washington as they are on about the same level of the political rhetoric. Yes means no, absolute means choice, choice means no possible way. The politicians can handle this. Just ask them.

Politics? Come on now, they're not THAT bad!

 

[freeatlast]

I answered you directly. Every individual chosen/elected by God makes a "choice" to accept Christ as Savior.I answered you directly. Every person God has chosen for salvation will respond to God's intervention in their lives by coming to salvation in Christ.

"Predestination" cannot be "overruled" by man because it is an act of God. That doesn't change the fact that men "choose" Christ as a response to God intervening in their lives by power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

You are a politician. :smilewinkgrin: predestination cannot be overruled, but the one predestined has a choice? What is the other choice from saying yes?