salvation Forever?

Wes,

The Bible gives us Blessed Assurance. Salvation of the Lord is secure. It is not here today, gone tomorrow.

Yep, I'm parroting the Bible. So I guess that someone would be God.

If it is TRUE FAITH, then it will never be lost.

If not TRUE FAITH , here today, gone tomorrow, it really doesn't matter. BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER REAL.

Some people thought Jesus was a lunatic, but I DEFINITELY know that to be WRONG .

I would rather rely on the Holy Ghost to teach me. I am just man. Thanks for having confidence in me though.

 

Jarthur001 said,

Cannot see it your way!

Scripture says Faith is the substance "of things hoped for"...not:, as you say, "faith is the substance of hope".

We have been given a promise by God the son that says, to wit, If you believe in me you shall not die but have everlasting life. The thing hoped for is everlasting life. So everlasting life is the substance of what we hope for. our faith then is in the promise that says we will receive everlasting life if we believe in Jesus.

 

Because those are phrases we limited humans with our limited intellect can understand. Even the most intelligent person cannot fully fathom eternal life.

 

It seems to me you are confused. Evidence does not have to be facts or things that we know for sure. Evidence is what we present that represents what we hope for or believe in. Thus our FAITH is the evidence that what we hope for exists. We present our faith because we do not have the reality that is promised to present.

 

Cannot see it your way!

Scripture says Faith is the substance "of things hoped for"...not:, as you say, "faith is the substance of hope".

We have been given a promise by God the son that says, to wit, If you believe in me you shall not die but have everlasting life. The thing hoped for is everlasting life. So everlasting life is the substance of what we hope for. our faith then is in the promise that says we will receive everlasting life if we believe in Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]what are things wes? </font>[/QUOTE]In the John 3:16 promise, the "thing" that is promised is everlasting life.

 

If you were not blind to the truth, we would not have to keep going over these things.

 

God said

quote:Bob said
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Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.
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God said

But JohnP wants to "ignore" what "God said" and "pretend" that it is just "Bob said".

So lets "show him again" --

God said

Notice WHO is doing the "SAYING"???

Yet?

In Christ,

Bob

 

So after GOD said (and warns us with this saying)...

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Then JOHNP says "Your use of Matt 18:23-35 is useless

JohnP is the greatest - boldly contradicting scripture with each argument for ALL to see!!

Could an Arminian ASK for anything more from a determined Calvinist??

I should say not!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I think best way I ever heard this explained was when Paul said if you keep on sinning you were never saved to begin with.

However - if you reject Paul - - -

There is always the thing an old friend once told me. "God is offering you a royal pardon that He said covers everything, even the future. So - if you accept the pardon - even the sins you commit after you accept the pardon are forgiven. If you refuse the pardon - it doesn't matter if you live a perfect life from then on. You blew it."

 

Where does Paul say "if you keep on sinning you were never saved"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Matt 18 Christ said --

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

What if Christ said "so it is that EACH of you that does not forgive his brother from his heart was never saved to begin with?"

Notice how this would not work at all in Matt 18.

That wicked slave was SUPPOSE to forgive JUST as he WAS FORGIVEN. Those who argue that he was never forgiven at all -- are really arguing that he DID forgive others JUST as he was forgiven for in fact - he was not forgiven.

If the Gospel reality was such that he was never forgiven to start with - the entire illustration would collapse! (Hence my use of Matt 18)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

He doesn't, he says if you carry on you will be taken to Heaven.
1CO 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Is that a sin Bob cause Jesus died for my sins but you do not believe He died for your sins do you?

Such a strength you want from a verse where no sonship but servanthood is. But you cannot accept the fact.

That's right Bob boy you are getting there. No son him but a wicked slave when He came in and a wicked slave on the way out to his wickedness.

Only the picture you paint.

john.

 

quote:Bob asks
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Where does Paul say "if you keep on sinning you were never saved"??
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Is this your way of saying Paul does not say what you claim or what has been claimed about "never was saved"??


1CO 5 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Is about kicking someone out of the church - "Disfellowship" and the result is seen in 2Cor 7 when they welcome him BACK IN after doing just as Paul as said in ousting them.

 

quote:Bob speaking of the "DETAILS" in Matt 18
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What if Christ said "so it is that EACH of you that does not forgive his brother from his heart was never saved to begin with?"
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Is this supposed to be a review of the problem for your view in Matt 18?

As you already "knew" I believe "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

But this is not the same thing as the individual pronouncement that "your SINS are forgiven" and that having BEEN fully forgiven in that saving moment of justification when you CHOSE to accept salvation - you should now FORGIVE others JUST as you have BEEN forgiven.

The wicked stand IN NEED of forgiveness and repentance. Once converted - once forgiven - once justified "WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD" Romans 5:1 and it is out of THAT forgiveness and PEACE with God that we then FORGIVE OTHERS.

Hence the Matt 18 point.

This means that the one roasting in the fires of hell does not have a BASIS to "forgive AS HE is fully forgiven"!!

Only someone ACCEPTED and FORGIVEN would have the BASIS for showing that SAME kindness to others!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:Bob pointing to the Words of Christ --
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Notice how this would not work at all in Matt 18.
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If you feel good about slicing up the NT and declaring the Words of Christ to be void - then I leave you to your work.

I am one who accepts His teaching.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

I've no idea what you're talking about. Try it in English.

Is it? That's what they should have done but it is good to hear that he will be allowed back into church after Satan has destroyed his body. Or do you think Satan will destroy his sinful nature? Oh Satan is the one that makes man righteous! Wonderful Bob just poetry you have at hand.

Arminian future scenario: Humilation?

Nothing of the sort. It is a muddying of your opinion but it is not an explanation, that I don't know and you don't either because as you said he was a wicked servant but never a son. You cannot use this verse but anyone who thinks Satan makes us righteous and returns us to church better people will believe anything they want won't they?

Arminian future scenario: Rage.

I know but you only believe that because you ignore: Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14 I think, if memory serves me well. Denial of scripture seems to be the way of Arminians.

Denial after denial but what can you expect from a man that thinks Satan makes one clean enough? Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
He loved me and gave Himself for who Bob? Not you Bob because you say He did not?

If forgiven then forgiven but you don't believe that forgiven means forgiven the same as hate means love you mean?
ISA 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, `What are you making?' Does your work say, `He has no hands'?
And:
ISA 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

I can't be bothered with the rest but you are on the hook: 1CO 5 5...Is about kicking someone out of the church - "Disfellowship" and the result is seen in 2Cor 7 when they welcome him BACK IN after doing just as Paul as said in ousting them.
You are sunk with that. Let's see what you're made of.

john.

 

quote:
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1CO 5 5...Is about kicking someone out of the church - "Disfellowship" and the result is seen in 2Cor 7 when they welcome him BACK IN after doing just as Paul as said in ousting them.
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Since you don't seem inclined to view the "details" in the 2 letters to the Corinthians on this subject....

Maybe you would read actual Bible commentaries before you launch into pure speculation about Satan being given someone's body "literally".

(As if there is the "Satan" door in church where bodies are tossed out to him - eh JP?)

What amazes me is this habbit of yours of proclaiming victory over your own guesswork and saying that this factless speculation of yours constitutes "Arminian humiliation".

As we view the "details" in the text we SEE that excommunication in some form was exactly the "Solution" provided.

Your idea of A church door marked "SATAN" for tossing bodies out -- is just silly! How in the world can you think of such a wild idea - but then worse - calling it "Arminian humiliation"??!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello JohnP -

Thanks again for the game you are playing -- and making this so easy for me.

So far Your denial of Matt 18 in the form of jumping into 1Cor 5 -- only to be befuddled by the 1Cor 5 -- to 2Cor 2 and 7 sequence admitted by many commentators -- is just a "pattern" of denial of scripture you have followed starting with the clear statement of 1John 2:2 "HE IS the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

So back to CHRIST's illustration of "Forgiveness revoked" And HIS application of that SAME fate to HIS OWN followers (which I guess you are saying - you are not since this instruction of Christ does not apply to you -- according to you)

Matt 18
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


So your problem "remains" with Matt 18 as you clearly stated that you reject the words of Christ there.

Your usual tricks don't seem to be helping much here JohnP -- you need to get creative at some point.

In Christ,

Bob