salvation Forever?

Well back to those "details" that you "can't be bothered with"...

Please read the commentaries already listed on this and see if those "details" don't register some place.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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...and that having BEEN fully forgiven in that saving moment of justification when you CHOSE to accept salvation - you should now FORGIVE others JUST as you have BEEN forgiven.
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Earth to JohnP -- Hello!! Anybody home???!!

My entire point has been that the MAtt 18 scenario DOES SHOW REAL forgiveness.

The story RELIES upon the fact that the slave is REALLY FORGIVEN, REALLY AT PEACE with the king, DEBT RESOLVED - slave ACCPETED - NOTHING between the slave and the king!!

It is OUT of that perfect, full, unrestricted - satisfactory - effective - real "FORGIVENESS" received that the slave WAS SUPPOSED to draw gratitude and forgive OTHERS in a likewise manner.

News Flash!!

The wicked in HELL ARE NOT forgiven JohnP!! So they have NO BASIS to "respond in kind" with a loving forgiving reaction to their neighbor.

Do these facts of the Gospel register at all with you John?

Only the TRULY forgiven, the justified, those AT PEACE with God (Rom 5:1) have the BASIS to respond as Christ tells HIS FOLLOWERS to respond in this story!!

Get it?

Yet?

Is there any point at which you stop "Gamming for calvinism" and simply accept the truth of the Gospel? Scripture? The words of Christ??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

Your point. I shall try some humiliation now thanks.

john.

 

Actually - I believe the context is specific - its focus is "forgiveness".

The context is "forgiveness". This is the focus, the lesson, the context.

And the "detail" is in the form of "forgiveness for what is owed".

If we "owe chastisement" alone - then fine.

But notice that the slave owes a debt that he can not pay.

Actually the details in the story show that it is what was forgiven that is "returned" - so what was owed to start with - is now owed "again".

The fact that suffering and punishment is the form in which payment for that debt is exacted does not change the primary fact that what was initially owed - and initially forgiven is what is being "paid".

As far as I know in the kingdom of heaven there is only one context for "owing a great debt that one can not pay -- and seeking God for His complete and free forgiveness for such a great debt".

We see the same thing in the Lord's prayer "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" the debt forgiven between us and God - is the debt of sin itself.

That is key.

Stay with the explicit context and the details of what is in the parable.

I am glad we both agree on that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Again - Matt 20 is in fact concerned with the primary business of the Gospel and of the Kingdom of heaven -- which is salvation.

The fact that it is a fare and agreed upon wage is not "irrelavent" to the story - but key.

The fact that this is very much the salvific core of a "Kingdom of heaven" Gospel theme is also not irrelavent - but rather it is key.

Your point that the "day's wage" amount (as an exact amount) is not applicable is true -- but is also not the point of the story.

The story points out the fact that the gift of heaven -- eternal life - is given to ALL even though some have sufferred and been persecuted for many years while others get converted at the 11th hour - yet all go to heaven.

The reward - the gift is still heaven.

The same is true Matt 18 - forgiveness and peace with the King is the gospel centric core issue of Romans 5:1 "Having been justified (forgiven) by faith we Have PEACE with God"

The fact that the Gospel teaching of Christ centers on Gospel salvific issues should be too surprising.

Lets face it - were it not for the clear meaning and implication (and the stress it causes one traditional model of salvation vs another) these Gospel stories would be readily accepted!

It is only because the lessons of Christ do not bode will for some of our bias/tradition/models for salvation that there is any need at all to squirm when it gets to where these stories are going.

The "wage/reward" in the "Kingdom of heaven" is heaven. That is not really the hard part. The fact that all are given the same reward is also not a huge surprise given that this IS the Gospel and we are talking abot salvation.

The fact that saints are persecuted and some suffer a lifetime while other sinners get converted at the 11th hour is also not a huge surprise.

In fact all of these details fit perfectly into the expected Gospel scenario.

Here is how Paul fit this into his own salvific model --

I am more than happy to comment on the highlighted parts of that message from Paul - as they very much fit into the Matt 20 model Christ presents.

Let me know if you are interested in going there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

Hello. Earth? Paying us a visit are you Bob? What brings you here?

Taking a debt away and then returning the debt to the one it was taken from is not forgiveness. It is conditional. Forgive and forget is the rule of forgiveness. Without the forgetting there is no forgiving by way of salvation. The children might need a clip around the ear often but that does not make them not the children of God because our sins have been forgiven and forgotten. John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Then your story falls apart then doesn't it? PS 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. 11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; 12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. 13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him; 14 for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.
That's the meaning of forgiveness Bob, as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. How then can you think your wicked servant was ever anything but a wicked servant?

Resolved? It was not resolved it came back. Not peace with God on condition, that's not peace but threat, but it is unconditional love He has for His elect. Peace cannot reside in conditions because if it is thought so you are under law and you die under law. Like the wicked servant.

Not true is it? There was something between the servant and God's love it was the condition that he behave like God? If you do this your debt won't come back is not peace.

That's not the meaning of forgiveness Bob, as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us is. How then can you think your wicked servant was ever anything but a wicked servant?

My humiliation was just late night mind. This is a cheery thing to see. I think I shall rub it in a bit , The wicked in HELL ARE NOT forgiven JohnP!! I am accused of saying the ones in Hell are not forgiven! I admit to this thank God. You say: So they have NO BASIS to "respond in kind" with a loving forgiving reaction to their neighbor. I say you do not understand your depravity that's for sure.

Make a good poll that would.

Yes the born again before ones.

Get it?

I am not gaming for Calvinism I'm gaming for myself and I use Calvinism because Calvinism assures me of victory. But if you expect anyone to believe that you believe one must forgive to keep their own forgiveness then must practise it? By their works you will know them. With respect.

I think this is going to be my last post for three weeks as I'm off on holiday and there is a lot to get ready. Bon voyage

john.

 

What I see in Matt 20:1,2 is equivalent to the superbowl. Some people get their entry ticket well in advance of the Game, while others get into the game by getting their tickets from scalpers the day of the game.

The object of this story is "Being there", not when you get your pass to get in.