Salvation from c200AD to 1517?

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Originally posted by drspinko:

Who do you think they were persecuting and killing during that time? Only witches and Jews? I'm sure there were plenty of true believers labeled as criminals, troublemakers, heretics, or even Satan worshippers. After all, that is exactly what the religious establishment did to Christ (God's own Son!!!) when he was on earth! And as I read in the Scriptures (a privelige I have in part due to the many who gave their LIVES to translate them into languages for everyone to understand) Christ told us that if they treated Him that way, we should expect the same! Perhaps the only reason that the Roman church isn't still persecuting God's people is because of the current political and religious environment created after the Reformation!
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They took a pretty clear stand on "extermination" of heretics (Catholic dissenters) and of "jews" in Lateran IV for example.

And the RCC herself admits to some of this carnage.

Consider the following news stories from the Vatican City.

Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES

.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) – The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST

Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni

VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98
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She never followed through on the promises listed above -- but the Pope managed to "confess" that there was no valid Bible based reason for exterminating Jews.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:
A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”
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The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”
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In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

We know from the decrees of Popes and councils that the RCC viewed itself as having authority over the state.

The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

”Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that
whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the
supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.

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Other councils, such as Vienna, issued anti-Semitic decrees that ordered the persecution of Jews. The persecution of other groups, such as the Waldensians, was also ordered by the RCC.
For example, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull in 1487 ordering that people "rise up in arms against" and "tread under foot" the Waldensians.
Roman Catholic and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988),

"Of eighty popes
in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."
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The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council,

"From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards
heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation; every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor....It was only the absolute dictation of the Popes, and the notion of their infallibility in all questions of Evangelical morality, that made the Christian world...[accept] the Inquisition, which contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and love to our neighbor, and would have been
rejected with universal horror in the ancient Church."

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Matt Black · Apr 11, 2005

Yes, but this answers my 'salvation' question how, exactly? Just because a group were persecuted by the Catholics doesn't make them saved eg: Muslims and Jews

Yours in Christ

Matt

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Incidentally - Fr. Ken Ryan's attempt to cloud the issue with "civil AND religious" authorities is mentioned in the previous post as well.

This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”
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``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.
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So what was the "answer" to the "GREAT question"?

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.
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And most impressive of all ...

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.
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BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but this answers my 'salvation' question how, exactly? Just because a group were persecuted by the Catholics doesn't make them saved eg: Muslims and Jews

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I was simply expanding on Randy's point about who these people were - (and Wycliff, Huss, Jerome, Luther, Calvin)... they could "all read". And much of their work was promoted via documents/papers/pamphlets after the press was invented in Luther's day.

As for the fact that Enoch, Elijah, Samuel, David, Moses the saints of Heb 11 were all "Saved" pre-cross...

Are you saying that you question that?

Recall that Islam is really a case of a Christian-ish Arab "deciding" to carve up scripture and justifying it by calling it "Islam". Then his "traditional sayings" were later compiled into what is the Koran today.

He STARTS with the COMPLETE Bible and GOES to a chop-and-slice version of it -- claiming that the OT was corrupted from the original documents and claiming that Paul was not really a true Apostle of God.

Islam has the same problem today that they had when Mohammed first saw the chance to take advantage of the Arabs and build a following.

And as for the idea that Muslims and Jews were the only ones "exterminated" -- the quotes above disprove that in triplicate. The RCC was going after the Saints of God.

In Christ,

Bob

Matt Black · Apr 11, 2005

No of course not. What I am asking is this: if the Catholic and Orthodox systems of salvation were so corrupt that people could not and still cannot be saved by them (the 'false gospel'), where is the evidence for an alternative method of salvation from whenever it is said that the Catholic Church arose until 1517 whereby men could be saved (the 'true gospel')?

Yours in Christ

Matt

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

My argument is that having a lack of information (such as the Jews had) on some points Pre-Cross did not stop them from being saved. It also would not stop Catholics from being saved all through the dark ages as their armies killed each other (rival Pope armies) and killed dissenting Catholics (Protestants" And killed Jews.

Their error "alone" and ignorance "Alone" was not enough to stop salvation. Deliberate error "yes" and turning from the drawing of the Holy Spirit? "yes" that would stop them and would stop anyone.

Your assumption is that there is a pristine "gospel line" that can be drawn at every point (salvation by knowing an arbitrary amount of truth) -- a doctrinal statement outside of which all others are lost.

The bible model is the one in Romans 2 where even those with NO scripture may participate in the New Covenant if they choose to yield to the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

Matt Black · Apr 11, 2005

No, it is not my doctrinal assumption, it is that of those here who claim that the message of Catholic Church is not one by which men may not be saved

Yours in Christ

Matt

Pastor Larry · Apr 11, 2005

Matt,

Why do you presume that the true gospel was not preached during the time of RC dominance? That is a huge assumption on your part. It is beyond dispute, biblically, that people cannot be saved by teh official soteriology of the Catholic church. There is no biblical basis to say otherwise. But to pretend that no one preached the true gospel in that era is a huge assumption that is unwarranted.

Matt Black · Apr 11, 2005

Let's have some evidence of that, then

Yours in Christ

Matt

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Originally posted by Matt Black:
No, it is not my doctrinal assumption, it is that of those here who claim that the message of Catholic Church is not one by which men may ...be saved
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Ok - but given the statements Catholics make about anabaptists prior to the 12th century (as early as the 3rd century) would you agree that "other doctrinal views" were there all along?

In Christ,

Bob

FLMike · Apr 11, 2005

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
It is beyond dispute, biblically, that people cannot be saved by teh official soteriology of the Catholic church.
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Is this really beyond dispute? Catholics, of course, would dispute it. I believe most Orthodox would dispute it. Many non-Catholic Christians would dispute it. Are they all not just wrong, but obviously, blatantly wrong?

tragic_pizza · Apr 11, 2005

I'm curious as to what the particulars of the Catholic soteriology which would keep people from coming to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Do they not get wet enough when baptized? Is it that they see their salvation as something which requires action, not just sitting in a particular pew at a particular time and walking down front of a particular church at the precise moment prescribed?

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I'm curious as to what the particulars of the Catholic soteriology which would keep people from coming to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Do they not get wet enough when baptized?
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Now THAT is funny!

The infant "get's saved" by "getting wet enough"!!!

What a replacement for the "APPEAL to God for a clean conscience"!! Magic water!!

It is just tooo funny!

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2005

You have to ask yourself if the magic powers of the priest - and the magic waters of Baptism are REALLY a substitute for the Word of God.

If they are -- then maybe that IS the way to be saved INSTEAD of what (Pope) Peter said in 1Pet 3 (NOT the magic touch of sacramental water "BUT the APPEAL to God for a Clean Conscience!")

In Christ,

Bob

Matt Black · Apr 12, 2005

OK, I'll ask my question again,as there are no takers: where is the evidence of this 'true saving Gospel' being preached prior to 1517?

Yours in Christ

Matt

FLMike · Apr 12, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The infant "get's saved" by "getting wet enough"!!!

What a replacement for the "APPEAL to God for a clean conscience"!! Magic water!!
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How do infants get saved in your view? Does it involve an APPEAL to God for a clean conscience? Even if baptism does nothing to save infant Catholics, does it actually prevent them from getting saved?

And what about adult Catholics? How does Catholic teaching prevent them from being saved?

FLMike · Apr 12, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You have to ask yourself if the magic powers of the priest - and the magic waters of Baptism are REALLY a substitute for the Word of God.

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It's one thing to deny that "the magic powers of the priest and the magic waters of Baptism" actually save, or are part of being saved, or whatever you think the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox, don't keep forgetting them) teaches. It's another to claim, as you seem to be doing, that these very things prevent one from being saved.

The question is not "do Catholic particulars save?" but "what about Catholic teaching prevents one from being saved?"

Matt Black · Apr 12, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
No, it is not my doctrinal assumption, it is that of those here who claim that the message of Catholic Church is not one by which men may ...be saved

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Ok - but given the statements Catholics make about anabaptists prior to the 12th century (as early as the 3rd century) would you agree that "other doctrinal views" were there all along?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]The Anabaptists originated in the 1520s. Where is your evidence - primary source documents - to suggest otherwise?

Yours in Christ

Matt

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists

The present concept and idea of Anabaptism or rebaptism has existed at least since the 2nd century, and some Anabaptists also point to the 1st century example of the Apostle Paul in Acts chapter 19. Montanus, the Montanists, and Tertullian (2nd and 3rd centuries) denied infant baptism, practiced believer's baptism, and rebaptized those baptized by heretics. The Donatists (4th century) re-baptized those who had been baptized by bishops who were traditors, or who were from churches stained by fellowship with traditors¹. Anabaptists (rebaptizers) were made criminals under the code of Justinian (A.D. 529). With anti-trinitarianism, it was one of two heresies punishable by death.
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The belief from the NT times has continued - that we should follow the NT text and not follow the traditions of man.

In Christ,

Bob

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