Featured Salvation: God's Choice, Man's Choice, Both Choose?

All humans love their sin...and fall short of the glory of God.

Not one person ever is saved because of natural revelation. Romans 1 tells us this and Romans 3 goes even further to explain that they don't even seek God. All they ever do is exchange God for a lie.

God has to break through our own deception, tear down our lies, and set us free from the bondage of sin. We cannot do any of this, nor do we cooperate in this. God must do this by his will power to do this and no one elses.

 

Note that whether a person accepts or rejects the gospel, salvation does not depend on that person, but upon God alone. Please stop rejecting obvious scripture to push false doctrine.

 

Why change the subject, why not admit God credits our faith (or not) as righteousness, and if He does, then we benefit. Why ignore or nullify scripture?

 

Nope its says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Stop rewriting scripture to replace God's word with man-made doctrine.

 

Note the denial of all reason to push false doctrine. If someone accepts the gospel but then is not saved, did accepting the gospel contribute in any way to his or her salvation? Of course not. Why not accept the truth? Therefore, drum roll please, salvation depends on God alone.

 

Yet another attempt to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The "to" in your poor translation is the Greek "eis" and in this usage refers to the purpose of God's choice, i.e. for salvation. Stop rewriting to nullify scripture and accept what it says. Individuals are chosen through faith, not chosen then given faith.

WEB
But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth,

NET
But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

NASB
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

LEB
But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

No of course you can find poor translations that translate "eis" with the positional meaning of "into" (entering something) as "to" or toward something" but why embrace error? And anytime you see the noun salvation changed to the verb saved, you know you are dealing with a Calvinist rewrite.

 

Note the use of personal incredulity as an argument, but it is a well known fallacious argumentation.

 

I never said otherwise.

I never said they were saved BECAUSE

I never said they SEEKED GOD

Yet another postor who is blinded by his theology and what he has been told others believe, which prevents him from even seeing what the other person is saying.

 

Summary:

1) Salvation is wholly God's choice, as salvation does not depend upon our choosing to believe in Christ. This is because some who accepted the gospel were not chosen, there faith was not credited as righteousness. Matthew 13 tells us of some of the lost being unable to even grasp the gospel, but also of those who understood the gospel and chose to embrace it to a limited degree. These (second and third soil types) were not chosen.

2) Does God choose those who reject the gospel? Nope, John 3:16 indicates believers are the ones who do not perish and have everlasting life.

3) A satisfactory illustration is trying to get the ball-boy (or ball-girl) to throw you a foul ball he (or she) collected. If you are not at the stadium or do not put up your hands, you will not be chosen. But getting that souvenir does not depend on your willingness to obtain it, or that you came to the stadium.

4) Does 2 Thessalonians 2:3 say God chooses individuals for salvation "through" (or on the basis of) faith in the truth? Of course!

WEB
But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth,

NET
But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

NASB
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. ​

Now the Greek word translated "through" is "en" which has the positional meaning of "in" (or within). But when used to show instrumentality, the word has the meaning of "by means of" or "through."

 

Rom_3:21-28 NASB
{21} But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
{22} even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
{23} for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
{24} being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
{25} whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
{26} for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier G1344 of the one who has faith in Jesus.
{27} Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
{28} For we maintain that a man is justified G1344 by faith apart from works of the Law.

G1344
Spoken especially of the justification bestowed by God upon men through Christ, through the instrumentality of faith (Rom_3:26, Rom_3:30; Rom_4:5; Rom_8:33; Gal_3:8); in the pass. in Rom_3:28; Rom_5:1; Gal_2:16; Gal_3:24 where faith is stressed as the means of being justified; with the phrase "of works" The Complete Word Study Dictionary

That man make the choice is actually the condition of God.

 

False narrative: If our salvation is accomplished by deciding for ourselves then it "ultimately depends on us".

Response:

That is a philosophical response but not a biblical one. That does not necessarily make it incorrect but correct or not it alack clear scriptural support. It may be possible to provide scriptural support but at this point it has none. However, using reason I can make a similar philosophical response by saying that just because man must decide to choose or reject, in and of itself, does not mean that it automatically depends on that person. To assert that it does is a logical fallacy. Wanting to stick to that logical fallacy once this error is pointed out is wrongheaded.

Using reason to respond to such claims I can also assert with confidence that while it may mean that it ultimately depend on us it does not have to mean that is depends on us. Asserting the claim that it does is yet another logical fallacy. When we claim an either or scenario this is known as the black and white fallacy. Either or scenarios are rarely true. Using this logical fallacy often is just a poor attempt to be right and shut down further discussion. Making such short quips as a response is guilty of the same thing I have been guilty in posting on this board. Its lazy posting. It has been a common response of mine and in my case it means I usually think very little of the attempt of the other poster's response and do not want to give it more attention. While it is true that these issues have been debated over and over again I believe certain topics should be dealt with beyond this lazy attempt to dismiss other posts and yet still assert what is important to us.

Now, if (and it is) our salvation was designed and implemented by God who is the only one who has the power and authority to make His salvation and require our response to His free offer is as we say it is then it negate the false narrative that it ultimately depends on the one who must choose in response. The false narrative is negated because God was the designer of the ability to choose, and the designer of the option to choose. After those things being established it can no longer be said that it ultimately depends on us. These issues deserve serious discussion and we should work to avoid wrongheaded and obtuse responses to legitimate propositions even if we desire to disagree with them.

Now moving on the a biblical response:

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

There is a clear implication of choice in this passage because first salvation is not had until confession is made.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

This verse once again compliments what is clearly seen by implication in Romans 10:9 that a choice is made followed by an action which leads to salvation.

Now you may not agree with that and a reasonable person can see those verses differently. Doing so does not make them right. When we have an inability to acknowledge what reasonable people can see, even if it is different than our own or completely wrong, and we insist that our view is the only reasonable way to view something than we have reached a sophomoric ability to deal with these issues.

I disagree with the Soteriolical view of reformed folks but I also believe that they have far too many poor arguments to support their views and have plenty of reasonable and realistic arguments to make in order to support their own views that bring these discussions to a higher level.


This argument that says "then it depends ultimately" on the the person who chooses is a poor and unreasonable argument.

 

I agree there is no one who makes a choice all on their own. God provides the ability being made in His Image. God provides the revelation through general revelation and special revelation. God provides faith through His word. Without those things in place man would not be able to do that. See Genesis and Romans.