Salvation is Conditional, but We May Not Boast

[thatbrian]

In John 3:16, we see that there is a condition to the outcome of eternal life, and it is belief in Christ.

Men, on their own, are not capable of belief in Christ. That is clear in:

Mathew 16:17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Also in John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The condition of faith must be met, and yet, we can not meet it. Even our faith is a gift. If it were not then we would have room to boast, as we met the condition of faith while our unsaved neighbor did not.

Does your understanding of soteriology allow for boasting? If so, it's wrong.

 

[Revmitchell]

Faith is not a gift

 

[Revmitchell]

It is false, it does not follow that if faith is not a gift then we have room to boast

 

[thatbrian]

Thinking about this some more, any synergism can be grounds for boasting; therefore, cannot be gospel Christianity. Only monergism leaves no room for boasting and rightfully gives all glory to God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Since God created the plan of salvation which is all who believe will be saved (Romans 10:13) then it is all of God. No scripture says God irresistibly compels anyone to believe. He said the power of salvation is found only in the gospel. Anything other than that is not the gospel.

 

[Don]

Seems like once a year or so, this needs to be re-posted:

A conversation between Simeon and Wesley.

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother's arms?

Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things where in we agree. (Moule, 79ff.)

-- John Piper

 

[InTheLight]

In John 3:16, we see that there is a condition to the outcome of eternal life, and it is belief in Christ.

Men, on their own, are not capable of belief in Christ. That is clear in:

Mathew 16:17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Also in John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The condition of faith must be met, and yet, we can not meet it. Even our faith is a gift. If it were not then we would have room to boast, as we met the condition of faith while our unsaved neighbor did not.

Faith is not a gift. If it were, Jesus would not be amazed at the Centurion's faith in Matthew 8. Jesus said he "found" this faith in the man. Not gifted it to him.

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

Does your understanding of soteriology allow for boasting?

No. This is another strawman. Show me someone on BB that has boasted that they had something to do with their salvation.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Seems like once a year or so, this needs to be re-posted:

A conversation between Simeon and Wesley.

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother's arms?

Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things where in we agree. (Moule, 79ff.)

-- John Piper

John Piper?
"The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual........." From Piper's "Desiring God" page
What does Piper mean when he says he's a seven-point Calvinist? | Desiring God


I'm sorry but "how can two walk together except they be agreed?" And how can I agree with someone who believes the above? The real Jesus "decided" to give Himself to die for the whole world. And just as God has "free will", He allowed us the same.

 

[TCassidy]

Faith is not a gift

Yes, it is. 1 Corinthians 12:9.

It is false, it does not follow that if faith is not a gift then we have room to boast

Faith is either a gift from God or it is something you do within yourself, in the past you have called it "innate" faith.

No scripture says God irresistibly compels anyone to believe.

This error is caused by thinking an acronym invented in the 20th century is the correct explanation of one of the 5 Heads of Doctrine as enumerated in the Canons of the Synod of Dordt. "Irresistible Grace" was chosen because it started with an "I" and thus spelled "TULIP." The better, and more accurate term (both to the bible and the Canons of Dordt) would be "efficacious Grace." This simply means that the determinative grace of God never fails. God's grace always accomplishes exactly what He intends it to accomplish.

And God does not compel us to believe. He gives us the grace to believe.He makes the Gospel of Christ so beautiful in our eyes that we no longer desire to resist. As the children's song goes, "He does not compel us to go, oh no! He just makes us willing to go." (The Hornet Song)

He said the power of salvation is found only in the gospel.

Yes. Only in the Gospel. Not in your "innate faith."

Anything other than that is not the gospel.

I agree. Any "gospel" that adds something you do, such as exercise your "innate faith," is not the Gospel, but is another gospel which Paul warned us about in Galatians 1:6-7.

 

[utilyan]

Calvinism requires synergism, we only need to point to the fact of a person refusing or willing to hear the gospel.

IF the regeneration occurs prior to hearing the gospel there should be instances of spontaneous Calvinist popping up who have never heard of Jesus.

If Regeneration occurs from hearing the Gospel, it has to be forced not a choice.

Did someone hold you folks at gunpoint, tie you up, and then proceeded to force you to hear the gospel?

Or did you COOPERATE AND CHOOSE TO LISTEN? If you cooperated = synergism.


Show us the guy who REFUSED to listen to the gospel and gets regenerated. Or someone who has never heard of Jesus who is regenerated.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, it is. 1 Corinthians 12:9.

Wait, that says only some people in the church get that gift of faith. Are you really willing to say it is the same thing as saving faith?

Faith is either a gift from God or it is something you do within yourself, in the past you have called it "innate" faith.

No, the ability to choose to have faith in something was put there by God when He created man. So your black and white fallacy does not fly.



{/quote]I agree. Any "gospel" that adds something you do, such as exercise your "innate faith," is not the Gospel, but is another gospel which Paul warned us about in Galatians 1:6-7.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is, doing is not a factor. Scripture never speak of doing as a factor.

 

[Don]

John Piper?
"The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual........." From Piper's "Desiring God" page
What does Piper mean when he says he's a seven-point Calvinist? | Desiring God


I'm sorry but "how can two walk together except they be agreed?" And how can I agree with someone who believes the above? The real Jesus "decided" to give Himself to die for the whole world. And just as God has "free will", He allowed us the same.

Yes, Piper. Feel free to look it up.

 

[tyndale1946]

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

I'm interested on how you brethren are going to handle verse two?... The emphasis is not on verse two but verse three... Brother Glen

 

[TCassidy]

Wait, that says only some people in the church get that gift of faith.

Yes. Only some of the people in any assembly are saved. One of the reasons Paul wrote to the church at Corinth was abominable irregularities resulting from unsaved people teaching false doctrine.

Are you really willing to say it is the same thing as saving faith?

Yes.

No, the ability to choose to have faith in something was put there by God when He created man.

Nope. He clearly says the unsaved man rejects spiritual thing, thinks they are foolish, and can't even begin to understand them.

So your black and white fallacy does not fly.

Sorry, but the only fallacy in this discussion is your insistence on "innate faith" which can't be found in the bible.

Yes it is, doing is not a factor. Scripture never speak of doing as a factor.

Exactly. So your exercising (doing) innate faith is a fallacy not found in the bible.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes. Only some of the people in any assembly are saved. One of the reasons Paul wrote to the church at Corinth was abominable irregularities resulting from unsaved people teaching false doctrine.

I am rather surprised this is your position here. Brother that is quite the stretch. Not the context at all.

 

[InTheLight]

I am rather surprised this is your position here. Brother that is quite the stretch. Not the context at all.

If he clings to this explanation, he should also apply it to Revelation 3:20 and 2 Peter 3:9, a couple of verses that Reformed claim only applies to the believers.

 

[TCassidy]

If he clings to this explanation, he should also apply it to Revelation 3:20

And what do I apply Revelation 3:20 to?

and 2 Peter 3:9,

Again, what do I apply 2 Peter 3:9 to?

a couple of verses that Reformed claim only applies to the believers.

Well, there's your problem. I am not now nor have I ever been "Reformed."

I am a Particular Baptist. And I know my bible well enough to know that neither verse you post as some sort of a juvenile "gotcha" has anything to do with soteriology.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Thinking about this some more, any synergism can be grounds for boasting; therefore, cannot be gospel Christianity. Only monergism leaves no room for boasting and rightfully gives all glory to God.

I usually stay out of the Cal/Arm debates because of all the vitriol, but I saw this and had to comment.

Firstly, I'll go ahead and go along with your labels, even though studying them out recently I have come to realize that they are indeed a slur against any non-cal, rather than an actual descriptor.

Secondly, your claim actually made me laugh. You're actually claiming that the person who says, "Anyone can be saved as I was", has room to boast, but the person who says, "Not everyone can be like me", doesn't have room to boast?

That's not very well thought out.

 

[TCassidy]

I have come to realize that they are indeed a slur against any non-cal, rather than an actual descriptor.

Both Monergism and Synergism are historically accurate terms used to describe two theories of soteriology. There is nothing in those descriptions that can be rightly called a "slur."

You're actually claiming that the person who says, "Anyone can be saved as I was", has room to boast, but the person who says, "Not everyone can be like me", doesn't have room to boast?

No, that is not what we are saying. Nobody who believes in Particular Redemption would ever say "Not everyone can be like me." That is a slur! The whole point of Particular Redemption is that salvation is not about us! It is about Christ. And that there is NOTHING about us that is worthy of God's Redeeming Grace.

That's not very well thought out.

I agree. Your post was not very well thought out. Why not discuss the issue instead of posting personal attacks?

 

[Revmitchell]

In John 3:16, we see that there is a condition to the outcome of eternal life, and it is belief in Christ.

Men, on their own, are not capable of belief in Christ. That is clear in:

Mathew 16:17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Does not say men are incapable of belief in Christ.

Also in John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Actually Jesus is only showing who He is to His disciples and those close to Him and hiding who He is from everyone else. This is not a verse to be used to show how God accomplishes salvation mechanically.

The condition of faith must be met, and yet, we can not meet it.

Where is your scriptural support that we cannot meet it.

Even our faith is a gift. If it were not then we would have room to boast,

This is a begging the question fallacy