Salvation Is Unconditional... Because...

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Sularis:
What makes it effective? The choice of man?
In that case free will
Or the Spirit in that case FORCED - unless you come up with a refutation

False dichotomy. Election is made effective through the work of the Spirit in the heart through which man certainly responds. This is what most call regeneration. It is in accordance with the free will regenerated by teh Holy Spirit. Calvinism does not teach that the Spirit forces anyone. John 1:12-13 refute your assertion given here.

So Larry, Im willing to admit I dont understand everything - but Im willing to state that I know as least as much as you ...

Not to be offensive, but if you "knew as much as me" you would not misrepresent what Calvinism teaches above. I know what I believe and I know that you misrepresented. If you knew what I believed and misrepresented it, that is unethical. If you didn't know what I believe, then you don't know as much as I do. All of which doesn't matter. I don't care who "knows what." What I care about is if Scripture is properly handled.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I questioned how you reconcile two statements.

I am merely making the suggestion that if both exist - then they somehow they have to work together - and thus I dont have to disprovc the validity of one or the other - just fanatics who refuse to admit the other's existence

I don't know that anyone is denying the existence of free will or election. The issue is how are the defined biblically.

[ August 26, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Abiyah]

Woah! Okay. I need simpler stuff to read! I
only fairly recently realized that believers sin.
I am still working on that! I admit that I have
not studied this much, because it is totally
overwhelming.

This, for me, is like telling the four-year-old
who asks, "How does the baby get inside the
mommy?" a 12th grader's biology lesson on
the subject. 8o) I need to take the baby steps
first. 8o)

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Sularis:
Here's the biggie - is the concept of prevenient grace valid?

Here's the biggie answer:

prevenient grace = false teaching = invalid

I see no where in the Bible where the grace of God in saving a lost sinner is divided up into parts.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ August 26, 2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[tyndale1946]

Gentlemen we have a Baptist Lady Abiyah who is seeking for answers as she has just come out of the Arminian faction. I would but I am not an Pastor and feel a Pastor should now step up to the plate and answer her questions. Where are our manners?... Shame on us!... Brother Glen

 

[Ray Berrian]

Prevenient grace is the working of the Holy Spirit on the life of people before they yield themselves to Jesus Christ. He becomes their enlightenment, [John 1:9b]conviction, [John 16:8] and convincing Agent [John 16:9]. Those who are bound by sins have enabling Power offered to them through the Gospel. The Holy Spirit moves on the mind and heart of the sinner encouraging them to believe on the Son. The effects of Adam's sin are reversed enabling the person to respond in faith toward Jesus Christ. Through this awakening from Original Sin, one becomes open to the grace freely offered to all who will believe. [John 6:35]

The Fall did not efface the natural image of God in man, [James 3:9] nor destroy any of the powers of his being. It did not destroy the power of thought which belongs to the intellect, nor the power of affection which pertains to the feelings. So, also, it did not destroy the power of volition which belongs to the will. This working of the Holy Spirit before salvation enables a person to see his or her spiritual need, enabling that one to choose salvation. The Holy Spirit never forces a human being into a salvation experience. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

Theologians have chosen to use the word Prevenient Grace. I think it was a bad choice because the Holy Spirit never gives grace until a sinner yields to the conviction and convincing power of the Third Person of the Godhead. If I were going to express the working of the Spirit previous to salvation I might have called this phenomenon, The Preliminary Ministry of the Spirit.

Grace never enters into the life of a person until that one bows in repentance and faith in Christ Jesus. [John 5:24 & John 3:16] For God to regenerate the lost before the human volition of faith would be a violation of His unprejudiced Attribute of Justice and also a violation of His undescriminating Attribute of Love.

'The {Spirit} and the Bride say, Come . . . ' [Revelation 22:17]

Parts taken from H. Orton Wiley,"Christian Theology", 3 vols. (Kansas City, Mo. Beacon Hill 1952) 2:346 and 2:353.

 

[KenH]

Abiyah,

Welcome. You might enjoy reading Grace Unknown by R.C. Sproul. It is a very good introduction to the doctrines of God's wonderful, amazing grace and would give you a solid foundation in the Biblical teaching on salvation.

Blessings.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Sorry, Ray, but that dog just won't hunt.

The doctrine of prevenient grace is a mere shadow of the real thing, simply a way of keeping man's will in the salvation picture instead of submitting to the fact that salvation is wholly a work of God from start to finish.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

Take time to refute Post 725 and you will find that this Beagle has you hold up in the hedge-row. I want to see how fast you can run.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Take time to refute Post 725

Where is it?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[tyndale1946]

Ray... Ray... Ray!... How many times have you tried to convince us all to believe in The Dead Man Walking Doctrine!... I guess you Arminian brthren can't help it!... Grace by definition is... Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject!... Since you are unworthy show me where you become worthy to get it?... Like Ken said... That dog just won't hunt!... Remember the topic... Salvation Is Unconditional Because?... Conditional on the Son of God who bought us but Unconditional on us who receive it!... That brethren is Grace... Irresistible/Saving/Amazing Grace!... That's the God I worship one who saves sinners to the utmost and does without their consent!... Brother Glen

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Eternal salvation is unconditional. Jesus came to this earth 2,000 years ago to save His people from their sins, and He did it. Concerning the rantings and ravings of the absolute predestinarian brethren, God has always had a small remnant holding to the faith that was once delivered unto the saints. Maybe we should appeal more to the Scriptures for our belief, rather than what we think is liable history.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
[QB]Ray... Ray... Ray!... How many times have you tried to convince us all to believe in The Dead Man Walking Doctrine!... I guess you Arminian brthren can't help it!... Grace by definition is... Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject!... Since you are unworthy show me where you become worthy to get it?

Saying yes at the movement of the Holy Spirit in no way makes one "worthy" of it - the person is still dead in their transgressions. Such a statement cannot be refuted by Scripture - it is your rhetoric in trying to explain the Arminian side that is not allowing you to see how it works.

 

[Sularis]

AMEN Scott - By Jove I think you've got it

 

[Ray Berrian]

Scott Emmerson,

Point out to me in my posts where I said I or any other sinner was worthy of His grace. All Christians who are of the more Arminian persuasion believe that we are totally unworthy of His most, wonderful grace.

If God did not think we were worthy of saving, He would not convict and convince the sinner to believe and trust in Himself. Remember, even as a sinner the 'image of God' is not totally destroyed. Let God convice you. [James 3:9] As you might guess James wrote this thousands of years after Adam's Fall in the Garden. This verse teaches us that human beings before salvation are 'depraved' but not in the Calvinistic perception of a Total Depravity.

 

[tyndale1946]

Scott Emerson said:

Saying yes at the movement of the Holy Spirit in no way makes one "worthy" of it

... I agree with that but when that happens it means you already have it!... I'm not worthy of it by no means and neither is anyone on here... My Word shall not return unto me again void it shall accomplish ALL that I send it to do!... Amazing Grace How Sweet The Sound... Maybe someday you will hear and see how Amazing is.. AMAZING GRACE!... Brother Glen

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Scott Emmerson,

Point out to me in my posts where I said I or any other sinner was worthy of His grace. All Christians who are of the more Arminian persuasion believe that we are totally unworthy of His most, wonderful grace.

If God did not think we were worthy of saving, He would not convict and convince the sinner to believe and trust in Himself. Remember, even as a sinner the 'image of God' is not totally destroyed. Let God convice you. [James 3:9] As you might guess James wrote this thousands of years after Adam's Fall in the Garden. This verse teaches us that human beings before salvation are 'depraved' but not in the Calvinistic perception of a Total Depravity.

I agree with you completely - I think you misread my post!

SEC

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
I agree with that but when that happens it means you already have it!

Have what? Scripture?

 

[tyndale1946]

"ETERNAL LIFE"!... but Scott you Arminian brethren are free to twist it to fit your doctrine!... Brother Glen

 

[Ray Berrian]

Sorry Scott Emmerson. I think I should ask Tyndale1946 to explain where my post is incorrect Biblicallly speaking. Salvation is all of grace and we even before our salvation were created in His image. That is why Total Depravity is a misnomer.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
"ETERNAL LIFE"!... but Scott you Arminian brethren are free to twist it to fit your doctrine!... Brother Glen

Scripture?