Salvation/Loss of the soul

[J. Jump]

But you're the one who pointed out I was using a weak concordance (Strong's).

That was what I was addressing. I didn't comment on you using a Strong's concordance, I did however comment on you using a lexicon, although I'm not sure which one you used.

Bottom line is lets quit dealing in this nonesense and move on to Scripture. If I offended you I apologize.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Guess so. Me and my church and my seminary and my mission board. And the apologetics ministries I work with. Guess we are all wrong. :tongue3:

If you want to go by sheer numbers, then the Muslims or Catholics must be right. Oh, wait, there may be more atheists than Muslims or Catholics.

 

[J. Jump]

However, one is saved by grace thru faith and cannot become unsaved. Death and the grave have no part in the saved persons eternity. So speak to that "saved" part, then tell us how the soul is different and can suffer, as you say, "outer darkness, condemnation, destruction and punishment to name a few." I think that is where folks who don't understand your posts get confused. I am saved for eternity, but my soul is to suffer? Explain one, then the other, as briefly and uncomplicated as possible. I may have to shut down due to a thunderstorm, but I'll check back later today.

Well the first is easy to explain becuase it's the simplest message of the bible. A dead man in trespasses and sins (spiritually dead) needs to heed the gospel message that Jesus Christ, the Perfect Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary to pay the sin debt that we have. If one will believe that Christ died as their substitute they are saved (made alive spiritually).

This is solely based on the works of Christ alone, and therefore is never changing. The faith is a one-time event in the person's life and the matter is settled at that very moment for the rest of time, which will never end.

What happens after that is not as easy to explain, becuase it is really a complete understanding of Scripture from beginning to end that needs to take place.

But as simply as it can be put just like in Genesis 1 where God separates the light from the darkness, God separates the saved person's spirit (light) from their soul (darkness) (Hebrews 4:12).

God didn't do away with the darkness He just separated it from the light.

The mistake that a lot of Christendom makes is that they believe/teach that the moment of salvation a person becomes a completely new person that walks and talks and thinks like Christ. However that is not the case. We are born as babies and must be taught to walk and talk and think like Christ.

During this learning process there is also our old nature that is still around that doesn't want to learn to walk, talk and think like Christ, it wants to continue to live the way it has always lived.

One must die to self and allow the learning process to take place and continue.

The Bible says that if a person will lose his life (soul) in the here and now he will find it in the coming age (1,000-year reign of Christ). However the opposite is also true. If one continues to live their own life. Then they will lose their life (soul) in the coming age.

It is clearly and plainly taught throughout Scripture that there is a salvation that is past and there is a salvation that is working in the present and will be fully realized in the future.

The salvation in the past is exactly that in the past. Done deal. The matter never to be discussed again. However there is a salvation that must currently be sought in the present and it must be sought after and work done throughout this lifetime or until the return of Christ to be realized.

It can be obtained and it can be forfeited.

Now as to how that works out after the judgment seat of Christ I am not exactly sure, because we just aren't told in great detail. But we are given enough Truth about the matter to know we don't want to experience it no matter how it plays out, because it's not going to be a pretty sight. And we should be focusing on doing what we are called to do, not focusing on what will happen to us in detail if we don't do it.

Now outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth has to do with deep grief and remorse. And that can be seen in the OT picture of Esau who was deeply troubled that he missed out on the blessing of his inhertiance, because he sold it for a bowl of soup.

Destruction seems to have to do with a person's will and desires being done away with finally by God, because they didn't want to go through the process in this lifetime.

Condemnation means we are going to have to pay up some day. The famous pay day some day line would be appropriate here. If anyone thinks they are going to get away with living a life of disobedience and unfaithfulness they are fooling themselves.

Hope that helps clarify a bit more.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The child of God will not have a thing to pay as you would suggest. Our debt has been paid already. We will suffer loss of rewards (crowns), but nothing else. We will not be shut out of the kingdom, nor out of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

We will have to give account of our deeds, but we will not have to pay. That debt was paid in full at Calvary. In full means I do not have to continue paying.

 

[J. Jump]

The child of God will not have a thing to pay as you would suggest. Our debt has been paid already. We will suffer loss of rewards (crowns), but nothing else. We will not be shut out of the kingdom, nor out of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

We will have to give account of our deeds, but we will not have to pay. That debt was paid in full at Calvary. In full means I do not have to continue paying.

You misread what I typed. I didn't say we would have to pay a debt. Quite the opposite. We will be paid for our works done in the flesh whether good or bad.

For good works we will be paid accordingly, and for bad works we will be paid accordingly.

We will suffer loss of rewards (crowns), but nothing else. We will not be shut out of the kingdom,

No here is a contradiction. You say we can still rule and reign without a crown. Sorry no crown, no ruling and reigning.

Plus the Bible says we will suffer loss. Not only a loss of what we could have had, but also a loss of what we already possess.

 

[Marcia]

With your question you are getting into the difficulties of trying to explain the Truth of the Trinity and how that plays out in the separation of the roles between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

<snipped> And in that we are shown that Christ will rule for a 1,000 years and at the end of that rule He will return the throne back to God and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb.

Seeing the 1,000-year reign of Christ in no way contradicts the eternality of God's kingdom, because God is the One in charge of appointing rulers in His Kingdom. And He will appoint His Son to rule over the earth for a 1,000 years before Christ will give that rulership back and the rule will become One again.

I have a question, JJump:

What do you mean by "the rule will become One again?"

 

[Marcia]

If you want to go by sheer numbers, then the Muslims or Catholics must be right. Oh, wait, there may be more atheists than Muslims or Catholics.

Except I'm talking about born again, evangelical, conservative, bible studying believers.

It is a red flag when someone advocates a view that is at odds with historic Christianity, with respected scholars and teachers and pastors, and with the plain reading of scripture.

When someone like JJump (I am not sure if you have agreed with this, H/oG) tells me that all of christendom has been wrong but they are right, it is usually something that turns out to be wrong. Your claims so far re Jn 3.16 and related claims are not supported by the bible nor historic Christian teaching nor what the text clearly states in context. I considered what you said, I have looked at the text in regards to what you've claimed and have not seen it supported there. I was not merely giving a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[genesis12]

I'm just speculating now, okay? Trying to state JJ's reasoning in simple terms. He seems to say "I'm OSAS but I can still lose my soul. Losing my soul means that I won't get to rule & reign, AND that I might not get to walk on those streets of gold. I may be off in a dark corner somewhere, OSAS, but grieving because I didn't live for Jesus moment by moment." I'll leave my speculation at that.*

*IMHO SFIC is citing the Biblical, historical, traditional view. I find no fault in that. In his view, rewards vary, but a soul is not "lost" - there is no penalty to pay that causes a soul to be "lost". Rewards are on a sliding scale, yes, vs.a.vs works after OSAS. Saying that a soul is "lost" is language that is too strong to describe the results of OSAS.

 

[J. Jump]

What do you mean by "the rule will become One again?"

God gives a portion of His kingdom to the Son for a period of 1,000 years and then Christ gives it back to God after that period is over and the throne becomes not the throne of Christ, but the throne of God and the Lamb. I probably should have said throne there.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[J. Jump]

I'm OSAS but I can still lose my soul. Losing my soul means that I won't get to rule & reign, AND that I might not get to walk on those streets of gold. I may be off in a dark corner somewhere, OSAS, but grieving because I didn't live for Jesus moment by moment. I'll leave it at that.*

*IMHO SFIC is citing the Biblical, historical, traditional view. I find no fault in that.

I don't think the streets of gold come in until the new heaven and new earth, but I could be mistaken on that. The heavenly sphere may already have that established, we just don't know.

But outside of that if SFIC believes that (which I would say he doesn't) then his stance would be correct. However I think SFIC's stance is opposite of this and therefore could constitute as traditional, but it certainly isn't fully historical as what I have stated has been taught since the apostles and SFIC stance is certainly not Biblical.

 

[genesis12]

Sorry ~~ I was editing "online" .. big no-no.

 

[J. Jump]

Saying that a soul is "lost" is language that is too strong to describe the results of OSAS.

But the saving or the losing of one's soul doesn't have anything to do with eternal security. The spirit is what is in view in eternal salvation. Men are spiritually dead and are made spiritually alive at the very moment of salvation.

Then and only then can the salvation of the soul come into play.

After the very moment of eternal salvation the salvation of the spirit is never brought up again.

 

[genesis12]

I understand the difference between spirit and soul. If spirit is eternally secure, what have I to dread? Loss of rewards, not loss of soul. Soul is mind-will-emotions. That's the last thing I want to "save". That's the very thing that has been at war with spirit since I became OSAS. When I depart this realm, I leave the flesh behind. My new body is not going to contain mind-will-emotions, the very thing I sought victory over following OSAS. You've got to clear up your terminology.

 

[J. Jump]

When I depart this realm, I leave the flesh behind.

But your flesh is different than your soul.

My new body is not going to contain mind-will-emotions, the very thing I sought victory over following OSAS.

If blind obedience is what is on the other side, then why is there this testing period on this side to teach us this obedience? Why not just end our physical life right at the moment of salvation?

The problem is obedience is not a guarantee in this life, nor does it look like it is a guarantee in the next age, which is the kingdom age.

You've got to clear up your terminology.

I'm not sure how I can do that. I'm using the terms the Bible uses.

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, when using the word "punishment" in English, "Kolasis", in the Greek is disciplining, not punitive. You discipline your children; criminals are punished punitively; two different words in the Greek. "Kolasis" is used only twice in the NT, if memory serves. "Timoria", which is punitive, also appears only twice, I think. I may look that up tomorrow to make sure.