Salvation = Negative Sum Game ?

[Bismarck]

Christians are "salt", but that salt can become tasteless and worthless (Matt 5:13).

Hebrews 6:4-6 echoes this notion, that those who believe, if they then fall away, are doomed.

Rev 3:5 warns that the Messiah can obliterate names from the Book of Life.



CONCLUSION: It seems that, although the elect have been written into the Book of Life since Creation, even still, now, in this life, they can "fumble the ball" and be "cut from the Team."

That is, you can start as a member of "the Messiah's crew", but lose your election through falling away in this life.

In that sense, election is a "negative sum game". I know of no Scripture that says names can be added to the Book of Life, but it is clear that names can be removed.

Crudely, I sense a parallel with Eden — man started in Grace, but then Fell away.

You start at 100.00%, but then satan assaults you and hacks you down, you buckle from the pressure, and are cut from the Team.

 

[David Lamb]

Christians are "salt", but that salt can become tasteless and worthless (Matt 5:13).

Hebrews 6:4-6 echoes this notion, that those who believe, if they then fall away, are doomed.

Rev 3:5 warns that the Messiah can obliterate names from the Book of Life.



CONCLUSION: It seems that, although the elect have been written into the Book of Life since Creation, even still, now, in this life, they can "fumble the ball" and be "cut from the Team."

That is, you can start as a member of "the Messiah's crew", but lose your election through falling away in this life.

In that sense, election is a "negative sum game". I know of no Scripture that says names can be added to the Book of Life, but it is clear that names can be removed.

Crudely, I sense a parallel with Eden — man started in Grace, but then Fell away.

You start at 100.00%, but then satan assaults you and hacks you down, you buckle from the pressure, and are cut from the Team.

So how do you understand the words of Jesus in John 10.27-29:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.​

Or the words of Romans 8.37-39:

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Crudely, I sense a parallel with Eden — man started in Grace, but then Fell away.

Bis,

I do not think that Adam and Eve started in Grace. I think they started in a state of innosence. They ended up receiving grace from God, but they didn't start with grace.

 

[tjfkbrawny]

That idea of names being removed frm the book oflife is being taken wayyyy too literally. I mean, you think there is a physical book with ink and paper?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

David Lamb,

Two things of John 10:27-29, that we must meet for have eternal life and being hold in God's hand: 1. "Hear" 2. "Follow" of verse 27. John 10:27-29 is a beautiful promise passage that Christ tells us, sheep shall have eternal life and are being hold in God's hand, no one can take sheep out of His hand by base upon their reaction - 'hear' and 'follow'.

Luke 15:1-7 tells us the fact that a sheep CAN easily lost. A sheep was already belong in Shepherd's flock of 100 sheeps at the first place before astray away become lost. Shepherd applys pastors, leaders, and us that we are responsible to bring backslidder back. If we neglect them, they would have remain lost forever.

Also, Luke 15:14-30 talks about a prodigal son. Father already have two sons at the first place. A younger son wants to leave his father. Father doesn't force him to stay. Father allows young son go. It tells us, that we all have freewill and decision with choice. When a young son leaves father, he goes in his own way and astray away from his father. He become lost. Later, when a son realizes that he is lost and very misery. He decides repent and return back to his father. When father sees son returns to home. He immediately run to his son and hugs him. It shows us that God is longsuffering and patience with us. Apply to 2 Peter 3:9. Luke 15:30 tells us, this young son was lost, now found, was dead, now live.

What if suppose, a young son never return back to his father. He would have been remain lost and dead forever.

Same with Hebrews 6:4-6. That passage tells us, a person already taste of salvation and did share with the part of Holy Spirit. Person was actual saved in the first place. But, when a person fall away, and remain astray never return then this person is impossible to be renew and remain salvation afterward(speaks of person who never repent back to God afterward). Therefore, a person is become lost period.

Also, you mentioned of Romans 8:35-39. This passage say nothing about salvation. This passage is talking about God's unconditional love toward us. Everything cannot separate God's love from us. While we facing troubles, trials, tribulations, persecutions, etc. God still always love us all the times. Even, God still love sinners(Romans 5:9).

Same with 2 Peter 3:9, God is longsuffering with people who is sinning or backslidding, He doesn't want all people go to everlasting fire, but he desires all people come to repentance.

So, Romans 8:35-39 is not talk about salvation, it talks about God's unconditional LOVE toward us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Yes, I believe Rev. 2:11; & 3:5 both are literal and warning. Yes, it is possible that, God could removed our names away from the book of life, if we stop follow, endure, and fail to overcome them in our life at our death(physical).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[drfuss]

So how do you understand the words of Jesus in John 10.27-29:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


​

Or the words of Romans 8.37-39:

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


​

I hesitate to support what Bismark says, but these two scriptures do not contradict what he said.

John 10:27-29 - Stop following Him and you stop being His sheep. If OSAS were correct, wouldn't it say "and they cannot stop following Me".

Romans 8:37-39 - If OSAS were correct, wouldn't it include: "Nor any other created thing including we ourselves, shall be able.......".

 

[belvedere]

"...nor any other created thing..."

We are not "created things"?!?

 

[Tom Butler]

Christians are "salt", but that salt can become tasteless and worthless (Matt 5:13).

Hebrews 6:4-6 echoes this notion, that those who believe, if they then fall away, are doomed.

Rev 3:5 warns that the Messiah can obliterate names from the Book of Life.

Salt can lose its saltiness, but it doesn't stop being salt.

Hebrews 6:4-6 does not teach that a believer can lose his salvation. The words "fall away" are not the same as "fall from grace." It is a warning against returning to the Old Covenant.

Are you willing to stake your view on a term that may or may not refer to a book containing the names of the saved?

 

[AAA]

I do not believe that a person can lose their salvation, because: If you can lose your salvation by doing bad deeeds, then logic would also dictate that you could gain your salvation back by doing good deeds!..And that is a man made works salvation...

Read: Titus 3:5 and eph. 2:8-9....

 

[David Lamb]

I hesitate to support what Bismark says, but these two scriptures do not contradict what he said.

John 10:27-29 - Stop following Him and you stop being His sheep. If OSAS were correct, wouldn't it say "and they cannot stop following Me".

Romans 8:37-39 - If OSAS were correct, wouldn't it include: "Nor any other created thing including we ourselves, shall be able.......".

But Jesus told the Jews in John 10.26, the verse immediately preceding the passage I quoted before:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."​

He did not say, "But you are not of my sheep because you do not believe."

In Matthew 1.21 Joseph was told by the angel:

"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."​

Not "because He will make salvation possible", but "will save". Also, in Isaiah 53.11 the first part of the verse says:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:​

How could He be "satisfied" if just one of those for whom He gave His life were to end up in hell?