salvation question

[Helen]

A Calvinist saying "context"! I love it!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
My father was simply a case in point. He is not the reason I believe as I do. I believe as I do because of what the Bible says.

There is ample evidence in the Bible that the elect are not always coming to God! The Jewish people are called 'the elect' a number of times and it is VERY clear they have rejected their Messiah in large numbers of individuals, as a religion, as a culture, and as a nation.

Well said, Helen.

The problem with the above non-cited quote, that Helen is referrring back to, is that it seeks to impose a 'theological construct' onto a word, absent Scripture or context.

Ed. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Helen and Ed,

Mark 13:27 says "And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." What will God do if the elect don't want to go?

Romans 11:7-8 says "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.'" Uh-oh. I guess not all of Israel is "elect" after all.

Hey, wait - who gave non-elect Israel that spirit of stupor? Why didn't He just let them decide?

 

[Helen]

The spirit of stupor came AFTER they had turned away from Him....again...

 

[pituophis]

What about Pharaoh and his free will. Poor old Pharaoh, God violated his free will to choose....

Exodus 6:1 "Then the Lord said to Moses,"Now you will see what I WILL DO to Pharaoh..." (NIV)
Exodus 7:3 "But I WILL HARDEN Pharaoh's heart..." (NIV)

It goes on-and-on-and-on...look at ch.11 in Exodus! What about the passover! What about all those firstborn children? Did they not get a choice?

God is sovereign. He is God ... I am not! He can do what He wants, when He wants to, and has to answer to no one!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by pituophis:
God is sovereign. He is God ... I am not! He can do what He wants, when He wants to, and has to answer to no one!

Wrong. He has to answer to the free willer's idea of how God should behave. Or so they think.

 

[Helen]

The fact the He gave us the freedom to want (but not to do) does not mean He is accountable to us. Your mockery shows the poverty of your position. The fact that we actually have choices in this life makes us more accountable to God, not less.

 

[pituophis]

No Helen, my position is just what God's Word says. I don't ignore scripture in order to make it fit my "anthrocentric" position.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
The spirit of stupor came AFTER they had turned away from Him....again...

But Romans 9 is written to tell us WHY the chosen people of God (Israel) turned away from Him and rejected the Messiah. Paul's reason is that though they were Israel, they were not all Israel. Though they were descended from the physical line of God's chosen people, they were not all chosen for individual salvation. Far from proving that the elect can then choose not to come, Paul is saying that the ones who don't come do so because they are not truly elect, no matter who they are related to.

Faith is the proof of election, not the cause of it.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
The key is in Romans 1, where we read that God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth...

You cannot suppress what you have not been aware of.

The truth everyone supresses is the truth of God's character (invisible attributes, eternal power and Godhead), which is visible in creation. This is all Romans 1 says. It says nothing about people supressing the truth that God has revealed in His Word. You have to look elsewhere for that.

God has made enough of the truth of Himself and that He will provide for salvation available to every adult who ever has lived to provide that person with the opportunity to choose the truth or choose the lie. One or the other. Those that want the truth will get it, as the Father will lead these people to Christ, who refuses none. However those who prefer the lie, consistently, will finally get that, too, just as Romans 1 indicates.

God has not revealed anyting about salvation in creation, which is what Romans 1 is about. He has revealed His character. Romans 1-3 is written to show us that all humans are in the same sunken ship. We have all rejected and supressed the truth and there is "none who seeks after God." The Bible never indicates that God has revealed enough about Himself for every adult to make a choice about salvation. What about the cannibal in Africa?

"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a real and available choice to all people.

We believe this and believe the Bible teaches that all men, because of their fallen natures, will choose the wrong way.

My father was a 'deathbed conversion', but it was more of a deathbed 'completion'. He had been searching for the truth his entire life, but the circumstances of his life precluded his associating that truth with the Bible. On the August before he died, when he was very sick, I was sitting by his bed and we were quietly talking, and he asked me about my faith. I told him my story. After that, God did the rest. He died November 1, 1978, literally full of joy that he had found out the answer to his lifelong search for truth: Jesus Christ. God allowed me to be there to answer the questions he asked, when he was ready to ask them. But he had also seen my life change before that, so there was a reason for him to ask the questions. "Seek and ye shall find" is a two-edged sword also -- some seek the lie and get it. My father sought the truth and God made sure he got it, and it was received with joy and thanksgiving.

I rejoice with you that your father came to Christ and that God used you to bring him to Himself.

It was, actually, listening to fights like there are here on BB which turned him totally off to 'religion' when he was a radio announcer in the fifties and drew Sunday duty for eight years, thus listening to fourteen religious broadcasts each Sunday and ministers, rabbis, brothers, fathers, pastors, etc. all trooped in for their individual half-hour broadcasts -- and fought like cats and dogs as they passed each other coming and going.

I would hardly consider the family discussions (arguing!) that we have going on here as the same type of thing as arguments between ministers and rabbis.

Daddy HEARD all right -- and then he SAW the results of the things these men believed in their behavior towards one another.

Actions do speak louder than words. Not everyone is who they claim to be.

Any unbeliever who wants the truth and reads these threads or becomes aware of the Calvinist heresy

Don't call something that a majority of the church has believed for years a heresy. Was Charles Spurgeon a heretic? What about Jonathan Edwards (America's greatest theologian and eventual missionary to Indians), Martin Luther (Reformer), William Carey (father of modern missions), John Newton (author of Amazing Grace), David Brainerd (missionary to American Indians), George Whitefield (evangelist), etc. Were they all heretics? Be very careful with that word.

that he may or may not have been chosen by God before he was born and therefore there is no chance for him if he was not chosen

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

It is not the "Calvinist heresy" that says that God chooses someone before they are born, it is God in the Bible that says that. You may or may not choose (of your own free will) to believe that, but it doesn't make it untrue.

-- these people will, like my father, be totally turned off to the Bible they see presented here.

If they are not elect, they will be turned off.

And that is why
1. I will fight Calvinism with every ounce of my being as long as I can
and
2. I have stated over and over again on this board that our witness is our lives. What people see trumps what they hear.

This is why
1. I will pray that God will change your heart in this matter as He did mine
and
2. I will continue to say that we can have lives that look good, but if we don't have the gospel, we are wasting our time. I am not saying that you don't have the gospel, I am just you can live right all you want, but if you never get around to opening your mouth and sharing the gospel, people still will not hear the Word, they'll just think you were a nice person.

In the meantime, people have SEEN the Gospel from the beginning, as Paul stated in the part of the passage folks still refuse to quote which is from Psalm 19 -- which Paul directly connects with the preaching of the Gospel. "The heavens declare the glory of God." It has been warped and perverted into astrology, but the truth was there from the beginning, right along with the promise to Eve, that God Himself would provide and, in fact, WAS the Savior Himself, and that we could always trust Him with ourselves.

I still don't understand why you non-Calvinists keep bringing up passages that show people choosing to reject God's revelation of Himself. These passages support our point that mankind is totally depraved and continually rejects until God works supernaturally in their hearts.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
The key is in Romans 1, where we read that God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth...

You cannot suppress what you have not been aware of.

The truth everyone supresses is the truth of God's character (invisible attributes, eternal power and Godhead), which is visible in creation. This is all Romans 1 says. It says nothing about people supressing the truth that God has revealed in His Word. You have to look elsewhere for that.

God has made enough of the truth of Himself and that He will provide for salvation available to every adult who ever has lived to provide that person with the opportunity to choose the truth or choose the lie. One or the other. Those that want the truth will get it, as the Father will lead these people to Christ, who refuses none. However those who prefer the lie, consistently, will finally get that, too, just as Romans 1 indicates.

God has not revealed anyting about salvation in creation, which is what Romans 1 is about. He has revealed His character. Romans 1-3 is written to show us that all humans are in the same sunken ship. We have all rejected and supressed the truth and there is "none who seeks after God." The Bible never indicates that God has revealed enough about Himself for every adult to make a choice about salvation. What about the cannibal in Africa?

"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a real and available choice to all people.

We believe this and believe the Bible teaches that all men, because of their fallen natures, will choose the wrong way.

My father was a 'deathbed conversion', but it was more of a deathbed 'completion'. He had been searching for the truth his entire life, but the circumstances of his life precluded his associating that truth with the Bible. On the August before he died, when he was very sick, I was sitting by his bed and we were quietly talking, and he asked me about my faith. I told him my story. After that, God did the rest. He died November 1, 1978, literally full of joy that he had found out the answer to his lifelong search for truth: Jesus Christ. God allowed me to be there to answer the questions he asked, when he was ready to ask them. But he had also seen my life change before that, so there was a reason for him to ask the questions. "Seek and ye shall find" is a two-edged sword also -- some seek the lie and get it. My father sought the truth and God made sure he got it, and it was received with joy and thanksgiving.

I rejoice with you that your father came to Christ and that God used you to bring him to Himself.

It was, actually, listening to fights like there are here on BB which turned him totally off to 'religion' when he was a radio announcer in the fifties and drew Sunday duty for eight years, thus listening to fourteen religious broadcasts each Sunday and ministers, rabbis, brothers, fathers, pastors, etc. all trooped in for their individual half-hour broadcasts -- and fought like cats and dogs as they passed each other coming and going.

I would hardly consider the family discussions (arguing!) that we have going on here as the same type of thing as arguments between ministers and rabbis.

Daddy HEARD all right -- and then he SAW the results of the things these men believed in their behavior towards one another.

Actions do speak louder than words. Not everyone is who they claim to be.

Any unbeliever who wants the truth and reads these threads or becomes aware of the Calvinist heresy

Don't call something that a majority of the church has believed for years a heresy. Was Charles Spurgeon a heretic? What about Jonathan Edwards (America's greatest theologian and eventual missionary to Indians), Martin Luther (Reformer), William Carey (father of modern missions), John Newton (author of Amazing Grace), David Brainerd (missionary to American Indians), George Whitefield (evangelist), etc. Were they all heretics? Be very careful with that word.

that he may or may not have been chosen by God before he was born and therefore there is no chance for him if he was not chosen

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

It is not the "Calvinist heresy" that says that God chooses someone before they are born, it is God in the Bible that says that. You may or may not choose (of your own free will) to believe that, but it doesn't make it untrue.

-- these people will, like my father, be totally turned off to the Bible they see presented here.

If they are not elect, they will be turned off.

And that is why
1. I will fight Calvinism with every ounce of my being as long as I can
and
2. I have stated over and over again on this board that our witness is our lives. What people see trumps what they hear.

This is why
1. I will pray that God will change your heart in this matter as He did mine
and
2. I will continue to say that we can have lives that look good, but if we don't have the gospel, we are wasting our time. I am not saying that you don't have the gospel, I am just you can live right all you want, but if you never get around to opening your mouth and sharing the gospel, people still will not hear the Word, they'll just think you were a nice person.

In the meantime, people have SEEN the Gospel from the beginning, as Paul stated in the part of the passage folks still refuse to quote which is from Psalm 19 -- which Paul directly connects with the preaching of the Gospel. "The heavens declare the glory of God." It has been warped and perverted into astrology, but the truth was there from the beginning, right along with the promise to Eve, that God Himself would provide and, in fact, WAS the Savior Himself, and that we could always trust Him with ourselves.

I still don't understand why you non-Calvinists keep bringing up passages that show people choosing to reject God's revelation of Himself. These passages support our point that mankind is totally depraved and continually rejects until God works supernaturally in their hearts.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
The spirit of stupor came AFTER they had turned away from Him....again...

The text doesn't say that, but besides that, it completely misses the point that not all of Israel was "elect".