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Salvation reduced to its most simplest level

kyredneck

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So, are you willing to admit that the true church contains lost people as well as saved people?????

If you mean 'unregenerate as well as regenerate', then of course not. If you mean 'lost sheep as well as saved sheep', then that whole generation were lost sheep wandering in the wilderness on account of their disobedience to the gospel to go in and possess the land. They could have been saved sheep dwelling in the land of milk & honey had they believed the gospel that it was their's for the taking.

Again, this only refers to a literal visible assembly where Christ manifested himself.

I mostly agree with you in defining a NT assembly like those that Paul addressed in his letters. What I don't understand is your dogmatism against the idea of a catholic church.
 
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kyredneck

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...now how in the world are you supposed to watch for revenuers and read at the same time?!? That's just plum dum....is that what you did? I bet you got chased out of the hills for not doing yer job!!
 

Iconoclast

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What many may know but forget, is that the English Baptists came out of a period they called "The Great Tribulation from 1660 to 1688. That Period was when the Catholics were in control of the throne of England and both Baptists and Presbyterians were equally persecuted and had to hide and often were found hiding together.

In 1688 the throne of England fell into the hands of the Presbyterians and the Baptists intentionally designed their 1689 confession of Faith after the pattern of the Westminister Confession for one particular reason - to show that they were orthodox in their beliefs with the hope that the Presbyterians would not persecute then as did the Catholics. In 1688 the new powere granted a religous toleration act which gave further hope to the Baptists.

Now, if you really want to understand what the 1689 Baptists meant by their article on the church, then just carefully compare the contrasting features with the Westminister Confession article on the church.
Language must be defined in its historical context and that is only way you will properly understand what these Baptists believed and did not believe in contrast to the Presbyterians. When it is carefully examined, you will see they had not changed their belief on the church at all from their early London Confession of faith, but very tactfully agreed with all the langauge of the Westminister they could but redefined the terms to fit their own beliefs.

Notice the contrast between Article 1 in the Westminister compared to article 1 in the 1689 London confession.

First the Westminister:

"I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that haven been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the head thereof: and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that fills all in all.

Now the 1689 Baptist:

I. The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect......

The parenthetical explanation is important when you read the contrasts between the Baptist and Westminister in sections 2-5.

However, the contrast between the two confessions is really highlighted by the Baptists in Article 2.

First the Westminister:

2. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the whole world that profess the true religion; tion.[and of their children; and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salva/I]

Now, the Baptist:

2. All Persons throughout the world professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints, and fo scuh ought all partcular congregations to be constituted.

First notice how the Presbyterians define "catholic" = "not confined to one nation, as before under the Law".

Notice also, that the Westminister defines "church" to consist "of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion."

I would say you probably interpreted article one in both confessions to agree with this Westminister definition of Catholic. However, the Baptists did not agree with that definition of the "church".

The Baptist Confession takes issue with both of these points. (1) Baptist refused to call all beleivers in the world "the church," instead, they said "all persons throughout the world professing the faith....may be called visible saints." (2)Baptist refused to define the church as being constituted of such saints, who did not embrace essential errors contrary to the faith, or were ungodly.

In sections three and four the Baptists condemned all churches that contained such error as "no churches of Christ" but "synogogues of Satan" and called the Pope "the antichrist."

In other words these Baptist (consisting over 100 churches) in section 2 rejected the Protestant Reformed concept of a universal invisible church made up of all saints, in all denomination worldwide.

Positively, they did believe in the future glory church made up of all true believers as section one states. Section one does not assert any PRESENT existence of this church but rather speaks of its as the "whole body" that "shall be gathered" consisting of all that have been and are true Christians.

However, this future glory church is then defined by section 2 as including all that are in true churches now. They denied that pedobaptist churches consisted of born again members. and that is why they carefully defined members of this glory church as excluding those within what they called Babylon the Great Whore.

When their minutes of their associations are studied it will be seen that this singular church was believed to contain only those truly saved within what they regarded as saved members of their own kind of churches. I can substantiate this by the associational records of Early English Baptists.


I am aware of these issues that you have posted here although not an expert on church history.

I am in a confessional church 1689....I take exception to it on a few points. While I agree for the most part with it and understand what they...mean
I cannot bring myself to agree with a clause or two in it.

3. The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan; nevertheless Christ always hath had, and ever shall have a kingdom in this world, to the end thereof, of such as believe in him, and make profession of his name. ( 1 Corinthians 5; Revelation 2; Revelation 3; Revelation 18:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; Matthew 16:18; Psalms 72:17; Psalm 102:28; Revelation 12:17 )


I know that everyone who walks in the church door is not a Christian. That is what they mean by the first statement...subject to mixture and error..

When I think of the church for whom Christ died I do not count the false professor as having any part of the church.

if a ship has barnacles that attach themselves to the hull...they are not part of the ship.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
...now how in the world are you supposed to watch for revenuers and read at the same time?!? That's just plum dum....is that what you did? I bet you got chased out of the hills for not doing yer job!!

My eyes swivel independently! I know in the hills the only way you can look is up so that is not a particular benefit. But here in the flatlands it is mighty beneficial.
 

percho

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Simplest level?

Ye must be born again.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ?What was the grace that justified? Last part of Rom. 4:25 and was raised again for our justification. We are; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; From Rom 8:17. Therefore we are joint heirs with the one, who has already inherited by being: the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; Col 1:18

The resurrected, Jesus, became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
 

The Biblicist

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Simplest level?

Ye must be born again.

Yes, that is the simplest level of salvation. But "born again" must be defined and that is where the issue lies. I define "new birth" as "quickening" which means to "make alive" and since God IS life, then for a spiritually dead person to be made alive spiritually he must be brought into spiritual union with God as spiritual death is separation from God - "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18).

Some Christian cults attempt to make the new birth the resurrection of the body. However, the body dies because man is dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. That is why Jesus said "what is born of Spirit IS SPIRIT and what is born of flesh IS FLESH." Therefore, the new birth has nothing to do with the resurrection of THE FLESH. It is the "spirit" that is born of the Spirit.

Only those whose "spirit" is "born of the Spirit" will have their bodies resurrected unto eternal life.
 

Yeshua1

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Yes, that is the simplest level of salvation. But "born again" must be defined and that is where the issue lies. I define "new birth" as "quickening" which means to "make alive" and since God IS life, then for a spiritually dead person to be made alive spiritually he must be brought into spiritual union with God as spiritual death is separation from God - "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18).

Some Christian cults attempt to make the new birth the resurrection of the body. However, the body dies because man is dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. That is why Jesus said "what is born of Spirit IS SPIRIT and what is born of flesh IS FLESH." Therefore, the new birth has nothing to do with the resurrection of THE FLESH. It is the "spirit" that is born of the Spirit.

Only those whose "spirit" is "born of the Spirit" will have their bodies resurrected unto eternal life.

Those who are reborn from above are just those who have received jesus as their Lord/messiah by faith alonr in him and His finished work on thjeir behalf, and as such, are now part of the true church of christ, all those who now have the Holy spirit dealed and indwelling them!
 
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