Salvation sequence chart

I agree you deny the order EVEN though you presented a numbered (ordered) list. (This is an example of shell-gaming-for-Calvinism doing one thing and then hedging and claiming another)

Which means you don't want that list to show order and are not claiming to actually know an order or sequence for salvation in spite of the numbered list you give.

That is fine - no need to get so exercised over that obvious point.

I am just pointing out that there is not much to respond to - when you are shell-gaming for Calvinism in an effort not to get pinned to an actual claimed order.

I don't blame you...

It does not match Romans 10 so you "need" to be vague. Unfortunately your numbered list is not as vauge as you really "need" for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Very true.

My point was that the sequence claimed in the grpahic and the one OldRegular posted - and the short summary form I posted (as being Calvinism) all have the same order.

Though I don't agree that Calvinism is correct - it is instructive that those 3 examples seem to match.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Given your definition of Grace in point 14 - would you also claim that point 23 is that same kind of "Grace" as in "for no reason at all" God elected you but not the one next to you?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Grace is a form of love. For no reason on my part...God elected to share His love with me. Some see election as "God in the sky....moving chess pieces". There is a form of truth to this...if you want to see it this way...i guess

But i think the better picture is mixing God in control with Gods love. God has Love for the whole world...and came and died in that very way. Yet there is election...God choosing of people. This is not talking about just the church, or apostles or a nation as some have said. It has been shown it calls all of these His elect. The Church is elect..a nation is...the apostles were....and...PEOPLE are.

elect means...choosen by God. choosen for what? to be saved? Most see this as a choosing to be saved. again...this can be seen this way....but is not the only way to look at it.

election can also been seen as....choosen by God..to hear His word.

1st...look at moses. Moses was given the WORDS...the law. God chose moses for this reason. This was God reaching out to man. Did moses still have to have faith? yes...this was apart from election.

Next..the nation....God chose a nation...and gave them the law and the profets. Was each jew saved by faith? no. God used the nation to share His love to the world....and is also used as a picture of the gosple to come. All of this and more is God reaching out to man....though the nation.

The apostles.....Choosen...walked with Christ....Christ shared with them the everything they could bare. yet...is it john 12?...somewhere in there..when it says...”it is now time for the SON OF MAN to be lifted up”....this is followed...they still did not understand...FOR THEY DIDN”T BELIEVE. Choosen...yes...to share. faith must come too. were all the apostles saved? no..not one of them. yet all were choosen to hear the word.

paul....choosen...in big fasion..hit on the head. God elected to SHARE with paul.
yet he too...had to have faith.

me...choosen....someone shared Gods word with me. God reached out....but I still had to have faith.

God was behind each of these elections to share his Love. Some have more chances then others. WHY? i have no idea...election is in Gods hands. Some never hear...why? well...i think some blame will go on us. God says GO...GO share. The going and sharing is part of Gods plan to reach out to man. The holy spirit lives inside us....says...GO...Go tell. This is God reaching out to man. If we do not go....God will deal with us.

But then...you have some passages that show God passes over some. Why? i have no idea. I have no reason to think this is a great number that he passes over.

Was it something i did to cause God to love me? NO
Was there something others did that God past over them? i don’t know....but i do not think so. If this was the case...paul would have never been saved.

NOW think of this. Choosing God...can only happen when God is a choice. there can be NO freewill until one knows of God. When God reaches out to us...and tells of us his great love....this is the 1st time GOD can be a choice. Does this mean man now has freewill...after hearing? no..but this must happen before even thinking of freewiil.

do all that hear become saved? if those that are choosen are only those that God shares...why is it that choosen is only taked of from the standpoint of being saved.

Good point.

The fact is that all the passages in the NT speak of someone, or a group that believes. In each case...those that believed was 1st shared Gods love. What about those that did not? I do not know. the bible does not say. But it does give us a hint..when it looks at the jews. The full nation was choosen to have Gods word shared with them....but the full nation did not have faith. Can we turn and now say...this can be applied to the ones that hear Gods Word...the gospel?

I don’t know for sure...just something to think about.

In the end...election is still God choosing. And to have that freewill..man must not only hear...but have understanding. Understanding comes from the holy spirit.

Gods choosing comes from Gods grace

Grace is love from God to us...for no reason on our part.

So bob to answer you...for no reason i can place my pride in...God shared his Grace with me. Why?...that is up to him. Thank God He did. some say election is pride. I can not speak for all....but for me..when i grabed ahold of the fact..i cried.

I thought all along it was ME...something in me..that caused salvation. When i saw it was all GOD....it made me feel worthless....all my pride gone


In Christ...James

 

notice....nothing about Calvinism.

if something i said..lines up with calvin...then take that calvin point and add it to my count.
what is the count now anyway? 31??

I think calvin is a Jamesism

In Christ...James

 

Elect can also mean "children of God", which I believe. In God's perfect foreknowledge, He would make a means for the gentile who has faith(elect) to partake in His grace along with the jew who had faith in the OT(chosen). Not all jews were God's chosen and not all gentiles are God's elect. Through Christ's work on the cross, jew and gentile alike benefit from the atonement. So in heaven there will be no jew or gentile, only God's "elect".

 

Elect can also mean "children of God", which I believe. In God's perfect foreknowledge, He would make a means for the gentile who has faith(elect) to partake in His grace along with the jew who had faith in the OT(chosen). Not all jews were God's chosen and not all gentiles are God's elect. Through Christ's work on the cross, jew and gentile alike benefit from the atonement. So in heaven there will be no jew or gentile, only God's "elect". </font>[/QUOTE]Yes webdog,

there are MANY uses of the word. Election takes on the context we find it. Just as you showed about.

some want to hide from the people part. only the church..or nation. and to tell you the truth..using people as only the apostle thing....that is a new one to me. But i have seen it posted

In Christ..James

 

 nally posted by Jarthur001:

Elect can also mean "children of God", which I believe. In God's perfect foreknowledge, He would make a means for the gentile who has faith(elect) to partake in His grace along with the jew who had faith in the OT(chosen). Not all jews were God's chosen and not all gentiles are God's elect. Through Christ's work on the cross, jew and gentile alike benefit from the atonement. So in heaven there will be no jew or gentile, only God's "elect". </font>[/QUOTE]Yes webdog,

there are MANY uses of the word. Election takes on the context we find it. Just as you showed about.

some want to hide from the people part. only the church..or nation. and to tell you the truth..using people as only the apostle thing....that is a new one to me. But i have seen it posted

In Christ..James [/QUOTE]


OPPs...i do not agree with one part.

I posted before i read the full post by you. I do not think "In God's perfect foreknowledge," is the driving force. In my view this leads to works salvation.

grace is the driving force....or that is how i see it.


In Christ...james

 

Grace is not a form of love. It is because God loves us that he behaves toward us with grace. Grace, like love, is a separately distinct Attribute of the one possessing it. One can exhibit grace where love does not exist! We see that all the time in politics! Likewise one can love and yet not be the least bit gracious toward others.

 

Grace is not a form of love. It is because God loves us that he behaves toward us with grace. Grace, like love, is a separately distinct Attribute of the one possessing it. One can exhibit grace where love does not exist! We see that all the time in politics! Likewise one can love and yet not be the least bit gracious toward others. </font>[/QUOTE]not again wes.

we have been over this 4 times..many pages. just read the old post...that should do ya.

 

Grace is not a form of love. It is because God loves us that he behaves toward us with grace. Grace, like love, is a separately distinct Attribute of the one possessing it. One can exhibit grace where love does not exist! We see that all the time in politics! Likewise one can love and yet not be the least bit gracious toward others. </font>[/QUOTE]not again wes.

we have been over this 4 times..many pages. just read the old post...that should do ya. </font>[/QUOTE]Learn about attributes and we'll continue this discussion! You are mixing and matching to suit your purpose. You are not accepting of the truth!

 

Grace is not a form of love. It is because God loves us that he behaves toward us with grace. Grace, like love, is a separately distinct Attribute of the one possessing it. One can exhibit grace where love does not exist! We see that all the time in politics! Likewise one can love and yet not be the least bit gracious toward others. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes as we always do, when we go over this...LOVE is the root from where we get grace. Just as you said above...it is because of Gods love..we have His grace.

Grace is not the full picture of love...only a part. hope, faith, mercy and grace all have at its base...love.

 

There are those who do not love that demonstrate grace! How do you account for them?

 

quote:
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James said
14) God chose a nation FOR NO REASON AT ALL (grace) and GAVE His WORDS..(Ten Commandments..in heb is..10 words)
..
23) God elected to share His love with me

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CHosen/elect for no particular reason? (or can we say that "God so loving the World" is a good reason?)

If "HEARING" the Word is the point then would you allow Romans 10 in that definition "Faith Comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God"??

Is that outreach of the Word something that fits into your definition of "elect"??

IN Christ,

Bob

 

maybe you did not see the last part bob...but my answer was at the last not as you posted...
Bob said
Given your definition of Grace in point 14 - would you also claim that point 23 is that same kind of "Grace" as in "for no reason at all" God elected you but not the one next to you?
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quote:
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JAmes said --
election can also been seen as....choosen by God..to hear His word.
***************************************
My answer.............
So bob to answer you...for no reason i can place my pride in...God shared his Grace with me. Why?...that is up to him. Thank God He did. some say election is pride. I can not speak for all....but for me..when i grabed ahold of the fact..i cried.
I thought all along it was ME...something in me..that caused salvation. When i saw it was all GOD....it made me feel worthless....all my pride gone
***************************************

ok now you ask...do i believe the Bible when it says...

Faith comes by hearing.....

YES..i believe all the Bible

 

let me guess what your next post will be...and let me reply with this....

What is faith?

 

quote:
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JAmes said --
election can also been seen as....choosen by God..to hear His word.
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Glad to hear it.

My question specifically was whether your definition of "Elect" (where you say that "Elect means hearing God's Word") would you include the Romans 10 case as an example of the "Elect" (The principle for the "Elect") in scripture?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Heb 11 already has that answer.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Glad to hear it.

My question specifically was whether your definition of "Elect" (where you say that "Elect means hearing God's Word") would you include the Romans 10 case as an example of the "Elect" (The principle for the "Elect") in scripture?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]yes...i think you asked this before..i said yes

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ."...i think this is the verse you posted

so...what is faith?

you said..it is in heb. i want to see the post to make sure we are talking about the same thing. not try to be hard..but as you can see..i have been down this road before.

so...again..what is faith?


talk with ya tomorrow..i'm off for now

Have a good one.

AND...btw...thanks for slowing down. I know you are a thinker..i can tell with your post. yet, before you was not listening...but jumping. i now feel you are. thats ok...we all do that at times


thanks...and again...have a good night

In Christ...james

 

My question specifically was whether your definition of "Elect" (where you say that "Elect means hearing God's Word") would you include the Romans 10 case as an example of the "Elect" (The principle for the "Elect") in scripture?

In Christ,

Bob
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What form do you see being used in Romans 10 for the spreading of the Word? Does Paul point to missionaries as His illustration after saying "Faith comes from hearing" or does He remind us of something God said in scripture about evangelism going out to mankind?

What is quoted as an illustration of the "Faith comes from Hearing and hearing from the Word of God" going to "ALL" in Romans 10?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Heb 11 is where we see the largest focus on what faith is and how it can be clearly seen in the lives of the saints.

Will that do?

In Christ,

Bob