Salvation sequence chart

Heb 11 is where we see the largest focus on what faith is and how it can be clearly seen in the lives of the saints.

Will that do?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]sure bob. I do not want to over look the other verses. We will get to those later after we look at the 1st verse.

there are 3 words in the 1st part of the verse that tells what faith is.
hope, assurance, and things. "assurance of things" are linked...but for now lets keep them apart.


in your own words...so a child can understand...
what is hope?
what is assurance,
what is things.

after the 1st part is looked at..we will move to the next part of the verse

let me just go ahead and add my thoughts now...this may save some time.

Faith is KNOWING. many look at faith as just a gut feeling that it is right. Faith is based on Knowing something.

there is more in the next part...

but as to the 1st part...

1) Would you agree....faith starts off as its base...by knowing in our hearts something is good...or right?

if not...please tell me your thoughts


In Christ....james

 

Why the book?

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The propose for our studies is not to contend with the establish view of election given by those that believe. It is however a way to break the mode of those that do not believe in election. Election is why most people do not except Calvinism. They do not understand election so assault its meaning my changing it to something else to understand it. I too will change the meaning for our studies but for other reasons. This is not to be viewed as a doctrinal statement as the attackers do. It is a tool for understanding election.

To many election places God as a puppet master and we the puppets. Calvinist do not have a problem with this view for all answers go back to God being in control. This comes across to many as a cold view of God. Our studies will show election mixed with Gods love for the world.

Interactive election is introduced only for a thought process in order to get our minds a way from the idea of God as a chess player. With interactive election we will see God in control, but also actively in love converting the elect. We throw interactive election in the ring of the debate for review only. In the end we will see, after we remove election as it is taught, that God is still in control.

J Arthur
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“Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.”

This is the key verse for arthur.

I wanted to add this today before i got busy. I may not get to post much...but i will try later.

BTW...my last name is not arthur

In Christ...James

 

Jarthur001,

you asked

NO, absolutely not! Man can have faith in that which is completely wrong, completely deadly to mankind. Completely opposed to divine God! That is what SATAN worship is! IT is faith in SATAN!

Your premise so far has sunk to the bottom of the pool of reason because you rule out human faith! ALL FAITH IS HUMAN! God has none! Therefore God can give none! He created man with the ability to have faith, that is, to have belief that is not based on proof, or is not proveable! Who is living today that can prove that God exists? NOT ONE HUMAN BEING can prove that God exists, yet many of us BELIEVE without proof that God exists! Who living today can prove that there is such a thing as Everlastinglife? NOT ONE HUMAN CAN PROVE that everlasting life exists, yet many of us believe that it does, and our belief is not proveable! Even so, We have faith, based upon a promises made 2000 years ago that says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life", and "Whoever believes is not judged, but whoever believes not is judged by their own unbelief."

So, your premise is dead in the water. All we have is knowledge of a promise! It is that was promised that is the substance of what we hope for, and our faith is the evidence that what we hope for exists.

 

oh boy....where we go again

please write this down wes. so you do not have to keep asking.

faith in a rock
faith in God
faith in tito beans

you can place faith in anything

have you ever heard of a tito bean wes?

 

...so you admit man can place THEIR faith in anything? Does God give all men this "faith" in rocks, Himself and tito beans (never heard of them), or only the elect receive this faith? Does God give satan worshipers their own different kind of faith in satan, or does man use their faith they were born with to worship satan? You see, man has faith inherantly. It is our ability to use our faith to believe Christ died for us. This is not a supernatural power God gives to a certain group of people called the "elect". This does indeed make God a respector of persons, the entire group called the "elect".

 

webdog...i have always said this

the point is...we must KNOW God 1st

now back to my tito bean. have you ever heard of a tito?

let me tell you a little about one.

a tito is about 1/2 inch thick...and around 2 inches round..it is white on top..and about have way down the side..it becomes blue. the bottom is both blue and white.

so....have you ever heard of a tito?

 

Is your question about tito bean a diversion?

We have a great restaurant out here that has a house specialty called Tito's Beans, but that is merely the culinary creation of a person known as Tito.

My reference book on Beans of the world does not list a tito bean, so it must be a Charleston WV colloquialism.

What's your point?

 

ok webdog...i told you what a tito is.

now i know you do not trust in titos...but can you not see why a person would put faith in a tito??

 

easy wes...answer the qustain...and you have the point.

you did not know before today....
now that you know...can you ...YOU WES...trust in a tito?

 

Why, Yes I can, I have the ability to have faith in whatever I choose to have faith in....even Tito beans. My faith in Tito's Beans keeps drawing be on a regular basis to the restaurant where they are available.

Once I learn a bit more about the tito bean that you describe, I may put more faith into it too, though at the moment I do not have much faith in the tito bean because my knowledge of it is very small.

It is like I have previously posted human faith in God comes from the knowledge that man obtains about God. The more knowledge, the greater the faith. The more we read the word of God, the greater the faith we "receive" from that knowledge.

Simple principle isn't it?

 

Why, Yes I can, I have the ability to have faith in whatever I choose to have faith in....even Tito beans. My faith in Tito's Beans keeps drawing be on a regular basis to the restaurant where they are available.

Once I learn a bit more about the tito bean that you describe, I may put more faith into it too, though at the moment I do not have much faith in the tito bean because my knowledge of it is very small.

It is like I have previously posted human faith in God comes from the knowledge that man obtains about God. The more knowledge, the greater the faith. The more we read the word of God, the greater the faith we "receive" from that knowledge.

Simple principle isn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]1) and why is that wes? why do you keep going back? Do you like the souce it is cooked in? why wes?

2) before you tasted that 1st bean....did you have the faith you now calim to have?

 

Wes,
What about 1 Corinthians 12:3-9?

 

No, it took the first taste, it took believing the person who first took me to that restaurant and told me that I should try "Tito's Beans".

My faith in God is the same. It took my mother, whom I trusted explicitly, telling me about Jesus the first time, before I would have any faith whatever in Jesus. No it was not an instantaneous Faith in Jesus, it took an increase in knowledge and when I could read the bible for myself, it took even more knowledge before I became willing to trust Jesus with my life.

It was not an instanteous gift given me that put faith in God in my life! NOR was it so in your life! If you think so, you are merely fooling yourself! Yes, there may have been a single moment in time when you awakened to the truth that you had been accumulating through "hearing" and realized that God is actually real and at that moment your knowledge became your belief, and your belief became your faith. But it was not something that happened in the twinkling of an eye, you had to hear before you could believe, and you had to believe before you established FAITH in what you believe!

It is that simple!

 

Wes,

So are you saying that it is a gift, just not an instantaneous gift?

 

again...before you KNEW of titos...before you even heard the word titos....did you like them?

 

PLEASE go back and read the first paragraph of my last post! Then please tell me what it is you don't understand about what I said.

 

another way to look at this too....

did your bud that told you of the tito bean...did he say it was good...or bad? if he said it was good...did that make you want to taste them?
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Faith comes by hearing....
also..faith is always in GOOD...or good as we see it.

hearing is more then with the ears....

in the Bible...hearing means understanding

faith in God is....

Knowing...or understanding ...and then hoping (when you hope...you want to see those GOOD things you KNOW about...or have understood to be good) in what we know..for the things we are told about...and have yet to see.


1)Man has no knowledge of God.
2)Man hears of God.
3)Man does not understand his need for God.
4)Man learns more about God and this does not help. Man now sees that he must give up his will and follow. God...if he is to place faith in God. This makes man run from God even more.
5) the Holy spirit brings understanding...
6) Mans eyes are opened....
7) Man now sees the Goodness in God.
8) Man now has a faith
9) now after salvation...the more he knows of God..the more his faith grows
10) i do not have a 10th point..


In Christ...james

 

χαρις - πιστις - both feminine
τουτος - δωρον - both neuter ... the gift is both grace AND faith. Neither come from man.

 

you can remove 3 and 4....if the holy spirit works from the start.

but no understanding COMES before this time.

knowing with no understanding about God does not work....

knowing all the facts of God...does not work
knowing/ understanding is what matters

understanding comes from the holy spirit

 

hey RC.how did you get the greek letters to post?

i have tried many times..and it never works