Salvation sequence chart

And when that UNDERSTANDING comes, FAITH comes INSTANTANEOUSLY. And it is a GIFT.

 

And when that UNDERSTANDING comes, FAITH comes INSTANTANEOUSLY. And it is a GIFT. </font>[/QUOTE]Good point here now

5) the Holy spirit brings understanding...
6) Mans eyes are opened....
7) Man now sees the Goodness in God.
8) Man now has a faith

5,6,7,8 happens in one moment

 

Is all faith a gift?

 

Faith in GOD, (not god(s)), is a GIFT.

 

So, then, Human faith in God is a gift, and I presume your proof text is 1 Cor 12:4-11, that wonderful passage where Paul is speaking of the Gifts that are dispersed among members of the body of Christ that edify and stengthen the Body of Christ. Gifts that are dispersed only to some and not all of the body of Christ, though all of the body of Christ receives at least one of those gifts? Is that the passage you refer to?

How did those who receive those gifts get to be part of the Body of Christ? Doesn't being part of the Body of Christ require Faith in God? Why is it that Paul says that gift of faith is only given to some?

You sir are confusing the diversity of Spiritual gifts within the Body of Christ, with the MANDATORY human faith in God that each individual member of the Body of Christ must have in order to be a member of the body of Christ.

Another Calvinist myth gone!

 

no wes...the gift of understanding...brings us to the place we can have faith in God.

so...yes you can say..faith in God..is a gift...for understanding comes from the holy spirit i see nothing wrong with saying that.

i knew you HATE to say it. This is your big point...grace can not be given to someone...faith can't...on and on. This seems to be your only point.

anyway you say it..faith in God does not come about until WE KNOW!!!!!!!!

 

Those who are in the Body of Christ were CHOSEN to be in the Body of Christ.

And God does not CHOOSE the people without GIVING them EVERYTHING that is needed. Because He loses NONE.

Wes,
Can you (Wes), lose your faith?

 

you would like that...would you not?

and you say you HAVE the truth. yet your whole goal is to crush the evil calvin. Forget about winning..and listen.

where it is again..you start....THAT IS NOT SO!! listen to me...i have the truth.


in the end...when it is placed on the table...you have NOTHING to say. Now we will wait till the faith/grave comes up again...and you will start again

sad

 

Jarthur, you explaining to me what a tito bean is, is not a gift. If you were to give me a tito bean, that would be a gift. By me having faith in your explanation of a tito bean, does not mean you gave me faith.

And because greek is posted explaining the gender of faith and grace, still does not mean faith is a gift. Read the entire sentence and don't split up individual words, "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

The calvinist claims man having faith is a work. How can it both be a gift and a work?

 

what i'm saying is this.

wes hates to hear someone say "faith comes from God". This really gets under his skin. Most know what it means when someone says this. most understand that we start with no faith in God. It is when God GIVEs understanding...is when we can have that faith in God. Wes just likes to fight over the words.

But at some point...God gives us something to apply faith toward God...or as some say...he gives us faith. If you are like wes and do not like faith being given...ok fine...God gave us understanding to use the faith we have to trust in Him.


the bean...is not faith..but the object of faith. the faith comes from seeing the bean as good. We KNOW it is good, for we tasted it...or someone told us how good it was.

the same is ture with God. if we do not know God...how do we know of His Goodness? If we do not know of his goodness..there is no faith. even just hearing about God will not work. hearing/understanding..brings us to faith...and understanding is given to us by the holy spirit


now lets look at this verse you posted..

1)"for by grace you have been saved through faith,

what is faith? hearing and understanding God as the holy spirit opens our eyes

2) and that not of yourselves;
not of by what WE do.

3)it is the gift of God,
ok..we are still talking about grace here.
the understanding we got from the holy spirit is a gift...so that we can have that faith..back up at the end of one.


4) not of works,
not because of what we done...but because of what God gave. understanding/grace...a gift from God


5) lest anyone should boast."
why? because if it was in us....if it was by what we done.....if it was by our own will.....we would have pride.

in other words we would say...."God saved me...for he saw that someday i would trust". this is pride

grace salvation says..."why? WHY? WHY? i'm a no good sinner and need to go to hell...you saved me any way...WHY? WHY?. why are you mindful of man?"

now i have heard some say those that hold to calvin...treat the elect as bragging rites. if this happens this is sad..and i wonder if they are saved. but most of the time..i think this idea is dreamed up by calvin haters

i can not speak for others..but i know myself...my thoughts are still...WHY WHY WHY??

 

I agree that faith has an object - but since the Holy Spirit "is real" and since He leads the soul "into all truth" and since His work is not limited by man - and since He CLAIMS that HE even succeeds in cases where people have no access to scripture (Rom 2:13-16) then the "degree of knowledge" may be truly limited as Romans 1 shows - but as Romans 10 shows that limited knowledge conveyed through God speaking in nature is enough to constitute "The Good News" for ALL the Earth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Grace is the gift being mentioned, correct. The understanding being a gift only in God gave us ears to hear and minds to understand. The Holy Spirit draws ALL men. Not everyone has the gift of grace because they refuse to choose it, but the Holy Spirit does draw all men and give everyone some understanding according to Romans 1.

If it's because of what we do or have done, yes we would be able to boast. By our will of receiving a gift? No. During Christmas when you receive a gift, do you feel pride when receiving the gift, or gratitude? There is no pride in receiving a gift, unless you earned it, then it wouldn't be a gift. If God chose from the beginning who was and wasn't going to get this gift, He would be showing favoritism. If you chose only half your family to give presents to this Christmas, you would be showing favoritism, and they would be able to boast that they received a present, and the others did not. God so loved THE WORLD He GAVE...He showed no favoritism because His gift is for everyone. It is man's decision to accept the gift.

One last thought...how many gifts have been forced upon someone? If the elect have been predestined to be the elect, they have been forced to accept this gift, meaning it is not a real gift.

 

I agree that faith has an object - but since the Holy Spirit "is real" and since He leads the soul "into all truth" and since His work is not limited by man - and since He CLAIMS that HE even succeeds in cases where people have no access to scripture (Rom 2:13-16) then the "degree of knowledge" may be truly limited as Romans 1 shows - but as Romans 10 shows that limited knowledge conveyed through God speaking in nature is enough to constitute "The Good News" for ALL the Earth.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

I think we agree...but..i think i come from another angle

hold that thought....i'm in a rush...i'll read it later and make sure i understand you


Later............


In Christ...james

 

At last you agree with the truth that our faith is based on knowledge, but you still insist that Faith in God is a gift of God, something that God must give before man can have it, and that, my friend, is a rusted out bucket that don't hold water.

If man can have faith in anything based on knowledge of that something, Man can have faith in God based on the knowledge that he has of God! It is that simple! That is the way faith works!

The gift of God regarding faith is "the source of knowledge" that he expects all mankind to "hear" from, which we call His Word.

 

Yes, and it is because of people like you that I might! If your belief is true to the Church of Jesus Christ, I'm not sure I want to be part of it!


However, I don't believe your belief is true to the Christ's church! Therefore, My faith is rock solid in Jesus Christ!

 

Yes, and it is because of people like you that I might! If your belief is true to the Church of Jesus Christ, I'm not sure I want to be part of it!


However, I don't believe your belief is true to the Christ's church! Therefore, My faith is rock solid in Jesus Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you saying that you can or can not lose your faith?

 

Yes, and it is because of people like you that I might! If your belief is true to the Church of Jesus Christ, I'm not sure I want to be part of it!


However, I don't believe your belief is true to the Christ's church! Therefore, My faith is rock solid in Jesus Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]You say it is because I and others believe that God is in control of His Church, that you don't want to be a part of it.

That is a shame.


Oh yes, one more question.

What specifically about God being in control do you not like?

 

YES! long before either of us was born, God set the buffet of man's salvation before man. He told us to come to the buffet, but if we do not, he has nothing more to do with us. If we do, and taste of the buffet then turn and leave, he has nothing more to do with us. It is only when we come in OBEDIENCE to God, and taste and stay with him, that we receive the gift of Salvation. God said, I have put before you life and death, You (implied) CHOOSE LIFE.

The Buffet represents ALL the work of SALVATION COMPLETED and waiting for OUR response! No matter who we think we are, God sees everyone of us the same, he has no favorites! He has no elect, UNTIL WE CHOOSE HIM, then we become HIS elect, the Bride of Christ, and as his elect All of God's bounty awaits us.

What about faith? When we first hear about the buffet, our interest gets piqued, and we begin to look around to find the buffet, soon we get invited by one who knows the way, and it is our responsibility to respond, but at first we don't know what to do. We don't think we have the right apparel to attend a buffet, we get fearful that we are going to have to change in order to attend, and many of us turn away before ever going. But our friend informs us it is a 'come as you are' buffet, it is not necessary to change anything in order to attend. So we do go and we taste of a little of it and like it, so we take more, and learn to love it, etc. etc.

There are those who are hangers on until the first heat, then they leave of their own volition (lose faith). If your church is typical, you have a front door and a back door, you bring them in the front door, they stay for a while, then leave through the back door. Maybe they are only Christian church hoppers, but then again maybe they come, as believers, hear what is not believable, and leave losing what faith they had.

Don't be naive about this, there is no church that does not have a back door or a two way front door. If you think you cannot lose your faith, it is only because you have not followed up on those who have left!

 

Yes, and it is because of people like you that I might! If your belief is true to the Church of Jesus Christ, I'm not sure I want to be part of it!


However, I don't believe your belief is true to the Christ's church! Therefore, My faith is rock solid in Jesus Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]You say it is because I and others believe that God is in control of His Church, that you don't want to be a part of it.

That is a shame.


Oh yes, one more question.

What specifically about God being in control do you not like? </font>[/QUOTE]That is NOT what I said, why do you insist on lying?

As to your last question, it is your interpretation of control!