Salvation sequence chart

Yes, and it is because of people like you that I might! If your belief is true to the Church of Jesus Christ, I'm not sure I want to be part of it!


However, I don't believe your belief is true to the Christ's church! Therefore, My faith is rock solid in Jesus Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you saying that you can or can not lose your faith? </font>[/QUOTE]What part of YES do you not understand?

 

YES! long before either of us was born, God set the buffet of man's salvation before man. He told us to come to the buffet, but if we do not, he has nothing more to do with us. If we do, and taste of the buffet then turn and leave, he has nothing more to do with us. It is only when we come in OBEDIENCE to God, and taste and stay with him, that we receive the gift of Salvation. God said, I have put before you life and death, You (implied) CHOOSE LIFE.

The Buffet represents ALL the work of SALVATION COMPLETED and waiting for OUR response! No matter who we think we are, God sees everyone of us the same, he has no favorites! He has no elect, UNTIL WE CHOOSE HIM, then we become HIS elect, the Bride of Christ, and as his elect All of God's bounty awaits us.

What about faith? When we first hear about the buffet, our interest gets piqued, and we begin to look around to find the buffet, soon we get invited by one who knows the way, and it is our responsibility to respond, but at first we don't know what to do. We don't think we have the right apparel to attend a buffet, we get fearful that we are going to have to change in order to attend, and many of us turn away before ever going. But our friend informs us it is a 'come as you are' buffet, it is not necessary to change anything in order to attend. So we do go and we taste of a little of it and like it, so we take more, and learn to love it, etc. etc.

There are those who are hangers on until the first heat, then they leave of their own volition (lose faith). If your church is typical, you have a front door and a back door, you bring them in the front door, they stay for a while, then leave through the back door. Maybe they are only Christian church hoppers, but then again maybe they come, as believers, hear what is not believable, and leave losing what faith they had.

Don't be naive about this, there is no church that does not have a back door or a two way front door. If you think you cannot lose your faith, it is only because you have not followed up on those who have left! </font>[/QUOTE]aaaaw so now you can have faith in God..before you even know there is a God. i see.

have you ever been to downtown NY city..handing out tracks? have you ever a 3rd world..sharing Gods word? let me tell you wes...i have.

and there are TONS of people that have never heard the gospel. They have no faith in God....for no one has shared. We are NOT born with this

and that TASTE? please wes..you can't "try" God. you are saved...or lost...not half saved....another pointless statement

NNE but no one..can be saved...tell he hears the GOOD news.

Romans 10:14 - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


call on HIM for salvation...this is the end of the path

how shall they CALL..if they have not believed?? if they have NO FAITH!!!

Faith..how saw they believe (faith)...if they have NEVER HEARD?????????????

and how do they hear???? GOD shares

have you forgot about your beans you love? you could not love them...tell someone told you about them. wes...this is not hard....a child can understand this part.

wes..what is it you do not understand???
are you really this helpless? i do not think so. i think you JUST WANT TO FIGHT

NO FAITH IN GOD&gt;&gt;&gt;TILL WE HEAR!!!
WE HEAR&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;WHEN GOD SHARES

as bob would say to johnp....
understand????
yet?????

 

and another thing....

sorry but you should read your logic.

you of ALL people says this..

**************
wes...
"God never gives us faith..we always have it"
"Faith is there for us to USE"

here now....
wes...can you lose your fAITH?

wes......
YES

here now....
are you sure???

wes...
YES YOU CRAZY CALVIN STUPID PERSON WITH NO UNDERSTAND&gt;&gt;&gt;LISTEN TO ME!! I SPEAK THE TRUTH!!

WHAT PART OF YES DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??? YES I CAN LOSE MY FAITH!!
******************

ok so this is faith as you see it.

God has no power to give faith
but you have the power to lose it.

humm

wes..you have more power then God

and that maybe the problem

 

I agree you deny the order EVEN though you presented a numbered (ordered) list. (This is an example of shell-gaming-for-Calvinism doing one thing and then hedging and claiming another)

Which means you don't want that list to show order and are not claiming to actually know an order or sequence for salvation in spite of the numbered list you give.

That is fine - no need to get so exercised over that obvious point.

I am just pointing out that there is not much to respond to - when you are shell-gaming for Calvinism in an effort not to get pinned to an actual claimed order.

I don't blame you...

It does not match Romans 10 so you "need" to be vague. Unfortunately your numbered list is not as vauge as you really "need" for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the reason I numbered the items in the list was so that simple minded people would not get lost, confusing the subject with the explanation.

Beyond that your rationale reminds me of WesOutwest. You both misrepresent what others say, actually calling them liars, to prove some point which is unknown to everyone but you.

Why don't you and Wes Outwest start a thread where you can write each other confusing posts that misrepresent what each says? You will make everyone's day.

 

Wes,

The difference in man's faith and the faith that God gives:

Man's faith can be lost.

Faith that is given by God is never lost.

 

Jarthur001, Either Post the date time group and the page containing My post where I said "Faith is there for us to USE" where I was NOT quoting someone else, OR Post a public apology to be for saying that I said it. That is not a phrase that I would say.

There is but one reason man can lose his faith in God, and that is because mans faith in God comes from within the man and not from God. Just as a man can decide to head in one direction, and while traveling in that direction, he changes his mind and decides to go the other direction, he reverses direction and precedes to travel. God does not force any man to head in one direction only, nor does God Force any man to keep faith in God.

It must be the willful act of the man to keep faith in God for man's faith to be pleasing to God!

I am the only one who has power over my faith in God! Since MY faith is inherent to my spirit, and is based on knowledge, God increases MY faith in God by increasing MY knowledge of God. If I refuse to take in more knowledge of God or even reject the knowledge that I have, my faith will diminish correspondingly.

God did not force Abraham to have faith, at least I can see nothing in scripture to indicate he did. God did not force Noah to have faith, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any of the Apostles or prophets. No Not even Paul who was already had faith in God and who was a religious zealot.

It is really silly how you keep kicking at the goads.

 

The difference in man's faith and the faith that God gives:

Man's faith can be lost.

Faith that is given by God is never lost. </font>[/QUOTE]That is merely your opinion, because you are lazy and want to believe that your are secure because you think the faith you have was given to you. Prove that the faith you have in God was given to you.

 

The difference in man's faith and the faith that God gives:

Man's faith can be lost.

Faith that is given by God is never lost. </font>[/QUOTE]That is merely your opinion, because you are lazy and want to believe that your are secure because you think the faith you have was given to you. Prove that the faith you have in God was given to you. </font>[/QUOTE]Prove that the faith you have in God came of your own will.

 

Can you prove this by Scripture you don't consider a myth?

 

You first! If you can prove your point I don't have to prove mine, i'll simply resign. Likewise if you cannot prove yours you must resign!

 

The reason no one can prove anything to you using Scripture is that you simply write it [the Scripture] off as a myth.

posted July 27, 2005 10:45 PM by WesOutwest.

This is the scripture that Calvinist's say supports the idea that God gives man his faith. That is a myth!

 

And when that UNDERSTANDING comes, FAITH comes INSTANTANEOUSLY. And it is a GIFT. </font>[/QUOTE]Good point here now

5) the Holy spirit brings understanding...
6) Mans eyes are opened....
7) Man now sees the Goodness in God.
8) Man now has a faith

5,6,7,8 happens in one moment </font>[/QUOTE]This is not necessarily true. The drawing of the Holy Spirit and salvation do not always happen at once. Someone can hear...be drawn...and a year later accept Christ.

For who? The Bible says the Holy Spirit draws ALL men (and not all the elect). All men then have the ability to understand, meaning all men have the ability to put their faith in Christ.

 

Can you prove this by Scripture you don't consider a myth? </font>[/QUOTE]If you will do a quick study of Hebrews 11, the Great faith chapter in the bible, you will find that not one of those written about as having faith, are said to have received that faith as a gift of God, why would God in breathing his word, not mention that little tidbit if it is so important to you. Indeed you will find in verse 6

Nothing mentioned about receiving faith from God, but God certainly requires it of man.

Now that doesn't prove that faith is inherent to man, or that it is not a gift of God, But it certainly makes is plain that God did not mention giving them their faith. So one must conclude that the source of their faith is someone or something other than GOD.

Can you agree that God made man with the ability to have faith?

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldRegular
I said in my initial post that the events were not presented in chronological order. ---------------------------------------------------------

I see -- so you meant to use a bullet point list but "numbered it anyway" on a subject thread titled "Salvation SEQUENCE chart".

A Bullet list that "just so happens" to follow (in general) the sequence of the chart.

No wonder you did not want to say it conveys order since it matches the order in the OP... Were you trying to avoid the problem of having two Calvinist posts in a row that appear to agree?)

BTW - your initial caviat went something like this

A bit of "Sequence" shown in that rejection of order wouldn't you say?


In Christ,

Bob

 

By contrast - here is the "sequence" I stated for Arminianism AND Calvinism previously - a SEQUENCE that got some Calvinists howling.

notice that I followed the order you gave in your denial of order

Regeneration (step 1) precedes Conversion (step 3) and Faith (Step 3) precedes Repentance (step 5).

 

webdog...

so you see it this way?

Holy Spirit draws ALL men....not just the elect

all hear..

some believe...but are not saved

some do not believe.....and well...they are not saved

some believe and are saved..

do i understand you right web?

 

Parens are mine.

No you do not understand Webdog...by your own deliberate choice!

 

I agree that faith has an object - but since the Holy Spirit "is real" and since He leads the soul "into all truth" and since His work is not limited by man - and since He CLAIMS that HE even succeeds in cases where people have no access to scripture (Rom 2:13-16) then the "degree of knowledge" may be truly limited as Romans 1 shows - but as Romans 10 shows that limited knowledge conveyed through God speaking in nature is enough to constitute "The Good News" for ALL the Earth.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]As i was saying last night Bob. I agree with many things you said..just not end.

Bob have you ever witness? I'm sure you have. if you have ever been outside of this nation sharing Gods love, you will find NNE SEEKS the true God. They have a need for worship, and they do worship many things. You can go to some places in the inter citys of the USA and find many that have NEVER heard the gospel.

My oldest girl spent 3 months in france. She ran into 1000s witnessing and passing out tracks and inviting others to Christ. Many know of a church...but most do not know the gospel message. This put a desire in my oldest girls heart for souls. Mankind does not seek God....but God is sending my girl

She has also been to mexico 2 times. The same story there. No one seeks God

My middle girl spent last summer in panama. He heart is still their. She can not wait to get back there. 1000s of unsaved people...worship other things...but do not seek God. most ever person she talked to...never heard the gospel story. When her car and schooling is paid off...maybe in 1 year...she will be back there. I know this for sure. Her heart saw the lost...not seeking God..and she wants to tell them. God is sending her Bob

each year my girls go to the mission field. Sometimes its in the inter cities...around gangs and crack houses...around gun fire and stabings. other times it is in another land...like my youngest just got back from Ireland. Now she is only 18...and i do not know what she will do. But right now after the trip....she has that same heart as the others.

in Ireland she worked with inter city kids. her group came across only 5 kids...yes 5 kids that went to church. This was in 3 weeks of walking the streets and handing out tracks and talking to 1000s. they saw gang fights...dunking from 10-12 year olds. One girl in her group was ran down by 5 inter city kids...yeahing they would love to rape her. they didn't use the word rape. This because..she told them jesus loves them.

You should hear her stories..she had the whole church crying. Kids living in the streets..for it is safer there than to go home where they will be beat. They had NO love in their life. Those kids they got to come to chrch..they asked them to write stories about themselives. Each kid told a story of how NNE LOVED THEM.

It makes me cry to hear it...and i did not see the eyes. I did not see the places where they lived. THESE KIDS NEED TO HEAR!! God loves them..and they do not even Know there is a God....yet...no kid seeks God

Bob...if you go out in the world...you will not see men flocking to the doors to hear of Christ. They will come if you give them what they want. but they do not come to seek God. If they do...God brought them there.

We always had missions in our home. people that went all over the world...the same story. I have a good friend in kenya. he has been there for 20 some years. The same thing there. people do not seek God. now...he can always get some to come to church ...if he gives them a meal. and he does do this some time..and they come. but they never stay. they came for the meal...not for God.

some are saved...yes. but my friend feels those that were...he could have went to their home to lead them to christ. the meals are good...in that he can share Gods love. only when others share...that is when they can know. but they DO not seek god...they seek a meal

all my girls have seen this 1st hand...and they all are in full time work...or want to be.

that is why i disagree with the way to express the meaning of these passages. You need to read them in light of the full Bible.

bob...do you see this world getting more Godly?...or less Godly?

with your statement above....
"His work is not limited by man - and since He CLAIMS that HE even succeeds in cases where people have no access to scripture "

with this reasoning...why go?

the Bible says...how will they know?? why is this asked? it is asked for THEY NO NOT SEEK GOD.

the preacher must tell...we are the preacher Bob. the holy spirit lives in us. this is HOW GOD shares

when you see the lost as they are ..and that is LOST.....you can not keep a person from going.

In Christ...james

 

Parens are mine.

No you do not understand Webdog...by your own deliberate choice! </font>[/QUOTE]good day wes,


so if you speak for web...and because i do not understand...tell me wes..what did i post wrong?

 

You twist the meaning of what both Webdog and I say, then declare that we said what you posted.