Salvation sequence chart

ok wes

every line of my post
lets number these lines and you tell me what ones i twisted. is that fair?

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1)webdog...
2)so you see it this way?
3)Holy Spirit draws ALL men....not just the elect
4)all hear..
5)some believe...but are not saved
6)some do not believe.....and well...they are not saved
7)some believe and are saved..
8)do i understand you right web?
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this is a reply to what weddog posted below
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This is not necessarily true. The drawing of the Holy Spirit and salvation do not always happen at once. Someone can hear...be drawn...and a year later accept Christ.

quote:
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5) the Holy spirit brings understanding...
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For who? The Bible says the Holy Spirit draws ALL men (and not all the elect). All men then have the ability to understand, meaning all men have the ability to put their faith in Christ.

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let me know...wes

thanks

 

NON-Calvinist:
It is perfectly clear that all that are drawn do not become believers, but nevertheless ALL are drawn during their natural lifetime.

It is clear that the drawing process for some is lengthy in terms of time. Persuasion does take time, some need more time, some need less time.

CALVINIST:
Regeneration is instantaneous, occuring at one instant in time, that time when God does the regeneration without the foreknowledge or knowledge of the one being regerated! Following that regeneration the one regenerated can now 'see' what was 'not seeable' before regeneration, because the spirit of the regenerated one has been born again by regeneration, and is now able to be drawn.

Since that regeneration was an act of God, God chose (elected) the ones that would be regenerated, EFFECTIVELY negating the word of His Son, who says, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

 

I'm sorry wes,

i missed something. you said my post was twisting. please share how this is the case. i could not make that out in your other post.

again the post..
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sorry to have to ask 3 times...but i just do not see what you are talking about.

help me out on this...

thanks

 

negating the word of His Son, who says, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."?????

now wes...why did you add this?? you claim this is a CALVINIST view. and it is not..is it

this is an Arminian view of calvin.
am i right?

come on.....you can say it.

a calvin person would never say this..would he wes??

 

According to the Bible...yes.

Before Christ's return all will hear. At this moment...I'm not sure. All men know about God? According to Romans 1, yes.

No. If they believe, they are saved. You can't be a true believer and not be saved.

yes

yes

Example: When my cousin was dying of melanoma this past fall, my wife had an opportunity to witness to my mother-in-law (strict works based catholic). My wife laid it all out there for her, to the point my wife asked her if she wanted to invite Jesus into her heart. There was a two minute silence on the phone. Eventually my MIL said she had to get some things right in her life first.
She heard the gospel. The Holy Spirit was (and is still) working on her heart. She willingly decided she did not want to turn to God at this time. Did she understand? Yes. Even to the point that she wanted us to talk to our dying cousin and witness to him. She has the head knowledge, but her faith is still in the catholic church for salvation.

BTW...my cousin was saved on Thanksgiving last year. He died Dec. 30th.

 

According to the Bible...yes.

Before Christ's return all will hear. At this moment...I'm not sure. All men know about God? According to Romans 1, yes.

No. If they believe, they are saved. You can't be a true believer and not be saved.

yes

yes

Example: When my cousin was dying of melanoma this past fall, my wife had an opportunity to witness to my mother-in-law (strict works based catholic). My wife laid it all out there for her, to the point my wife asked her if she wanted to invite Jesus into her heart. There was a two minute silence on the phone. Eventually my MIL said she had to get some things right in her life first.
She heard the gospel. The Holy Spirit was (and is still) working on her heart. She willingly decided she did not want to turn to God at this time. Did she understand? Yes. Even to the point that she wanted us to talk to our dying cousin and witness to him. She has the head knowledge, but her faith is still in the catholic church for salvation.

BTW...my cousin was saved on Thanksgiving last year. He died Dec. 30th.

 

No freewiller on this Forum has yet explained how their doctrine is not refuted by the following Scripture because they cannot!

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

natural man

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

The natural man is the unregenerate

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.


receiveth not (though they are offered to him, and are "worthy of being received by all men")

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

they are foolishness unto him

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."


neither can he

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Ephesians 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

...because that verse does not refute my doctrine.

Who is Paul speaking to? Believers.
Who is the "natural man" in this verse? It is the "old nature" still left in believers, a carnal man. The person in question is not only one who either has had no spiritual teaching, or has not profited by it; but one who lives for the present world, having no respect for spiritual or eternal things.

Natural man, or ψυχικος means "The animal man"; the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions; the word "ψυχη" in "ψυχικος", which is oftened translated soul, means the lower (sensitive) part of man. I believe it is referring to the "animal man" that we were born with.

 

...because that verse does not refute my doctrine.

Who is Paul speaking to? Believers.
Who is the "natural man" in this verse? It is the "old nature" still left in believers, a carnal man. The person in question is not only one who either has had no spiritual teaching, or has not profited by it; but one who lives for the present world, having no respect for spiritual or eternal things.

</font>[/QUOTE]1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John Gill's exegesis of this passage which, in my opinion, trumps that of webdog.

"Ver. 14. But the natural man, &c.] Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things; not an unregenerate man only, who is openly and notoriously profane, abandoned to sensual lusts and pleasures; though such a man being sensual, and not having the Spirit, must be a natural man; but rather the wise philosopher, the Scribe, the disputer of this world; the rationalist, the man of the highest attainments in nature, in whom reason is wrought up to its highest pitch; the man of the greatest natural parts and abilities, yet without the Spirit and grace of God, mentioned 1Co 1:20 and who all along, both in that chapter and in this, quite down to this passage, is had in view: indeed, every man in a state of nature, who is as he was born, whatever may be the inward furniture of his mind, or his outward conduct of life, is but a natural man, and such an one

receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: not the things relating to the deity, personality, and perfections of the Holy Spirit, though these the natural man knows not, nor receives; nor the things done by him, particularly the operations of his grace on the souls of men in regeneration, concerning which he says, as Nicodemus did, "how can these things be?" but the truths of the Gospel before spoken of; so called, because they are contained in the Scriptures edited by the Spirit of God, are the deep things of God, which he searches into and reveals; and because they are made known by him, who is given and received for that end and purpose, that the saints might know them; and because they are delivered by the preachers of the Gospel, in words which he teacheth; now these the natural man receives not in the love of them, so as to approve of and like them, truly to believe them, cordially embrace them, and heartily be subject to them, profess and obey them, but on the contrary abhors and rejects them:

for they are foolishness unto him; they are looked upon by him as absurd, and contrary to reason; they do not agree with his taste, he disrelishes and rejects them as things insipid and distasteful; he regards them as the effects of a crazy brain, and the reveries of a distempered head, and are with him the subject of banter and ridicule:

neither can he know them: as a natural man, and whilst he is such, nor by the help and mere light of nature only; his understanding, which is shut unto them, must be opened by a divine power, and a superior spiritual light must be thrown into it; at most he can only know the literal and grammatical sense of them, or only in the theory, notionally and speculatively, not experimentally, spiritually, and savingly:

because they are spiritually discerned; in a spiritual manner, by a spiritual light, and under the influence, and by the assistance of the Spirit of God. There must be a natural visive discerning faculty, suited to the object; as there must be a natural visive faculty to see and discern natural things, so there must be a spiritual one, to see, discern, judge, and approve of spiritual things; and which only a spiritual, and not a natural man has."

 

negating the word of His Son, who says, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."?????

now wes...why did you add this?? you claim this is a CALVINIST view. and it is not..is it

this is an Arminian view of calvin.
am i right?

come on.....you can say it.

a calvin person would never say this..would he wes?? </font>[/QUOTE]Every time you say that man must be regerated first, that is exactly what you are saying. So don't give us the "what? me worry? routine.

 

well web,

you are right about the greek word.

but...CONTEXT is King
read and see if you agree
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I believe if you look at the order of the context..you will see paul comparing the the nature with God…..and without God.

Knowing God….
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Not Knowing God….
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Knowing God…..
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Not knowing God….
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Knowing God…
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Not knowing God…
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Knowing God…
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

negating the word of His Son, who says, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."?????

now wes...why did you add this?? you claim this is a CALVINIST view. and it is not..is it

this is an Arminian view of calvin.
am i right?

come on.....you can say it.

a calvin person would never say this..would he wes?? </font>[/QUOTE]Every time you say that man must be regerated first, that is exactly what you are saying. So don't give us the "what? me worry? routine. </font>[/QUOTE]nope...not me. ask me what i think and i will tell ya wes.

now wes...look and see...all i'm claiming is this.

you said this was a calvin view. but is it?

no calvin would say this wes.

this is an arminian view.

understand?

BTW...still waiting on your reply of how i twisted that one post. can you take the time and post? or should i just move on?

tell you what..this is the last time i'll ask. 4 times is to many times

have a good day wes

In Christ..James

 

That's what I hear from Calvinists.

 

Jarthur, I don't believe the context in the chapter is about who knows God, but rather the THINGS of God.
Paul starts off in verse 1 making an apology for the way he preaches.
In verses 2 - 5 he gives the reason why he uses this manner.
In verses 6 - 10 Paul shows that his preaching is not because of being gifted in human speech or wisdom, but by the mysterious wisdom of God, which even the princes of this world did not know, but that which only the Spirit of God can reveal.
Verse 11 tells us that it is the Spirit of God alone that can reveal the things of God.
Verses 12 and 13 tell us the apostles know the things of God by the Spirit, and teach them with the words of the Spirit, and not using man's wisdom.
Now for verse 14. The natural, or "animal" man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, but (verse 15), but the spiritual man (πνευματικος, the opposite of ψυχικος) can discern and teach because he has the mind of Christ (verse 15, 16)

Oldregular...opinions vary depending on view. John Gill and I both have two nostrils.

 

That's what I hear from Calvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]maybe so wes.

i don't know who you have talked with..and we all have our own views.

but i know of no calvin that would say this..

"negating the word of His Son, who says, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

now i have hard many, many, many calvin haters say this.


In Christ..james

 

Ok webdog,

to mean it is clear. You clearly see it another way.

we disagree

i just would rather say how i believe..and not have other tell me what i must believe.


In Christ...James

 

Understood... and to me it is clear when comparing it other scripture and the underlying theme of what the entire Bible's message is, not to fit into the theology of TULIP. One can make anything comform to whatever they wish.

 

"The Doctrine of Election" negates the Word of Jesus in John 3:16!

I do not hate Calvin or any person who adheres to the teaching, I hate the teaching because it is not consistent with the words of Jesus!