Salvation sequence chart

can..but should not

 

"The Doctrine of Election" negates the Word of Jesus in John 3:16!

I do not hate Calvin or any person who adheres to the teaching, I hate the teaching because it is not consistent with the words of Jesus! </font>[/QUOTE]The Doctrine of Election DOES NOT negate John 3:16.

Read carefully:

The elect ARE the whosoevers.

 

webdog..i think you hit on something that is so so true

TULIP is both good and bad. Tulip is a ouline for study. Many take this to far...where others attack the headings of the outline without knowing what they are for...or mean.

At best TULIP should be read..only as a map. If you do not agree fine. If you do agree..back it with the word.

most on the out side look at calvinist that read about TULIP..and got traped..in a powerful brainwashing..and can not break from its grips. yet most calvinist started out on the other side...and had to lay aside their old logic and take on Gods Word. read john piper on this

I know for sure this happen to me. all the arguements i once held i saw as mans logic. when faced with the truth..i had to give logic up..for the bible

right now...start a tread asking for verse on mans freewill...the one point that holds all arminian together. freewill is all based on mans logic.

you will not get ONE verse. many about Gods love..nothing about mans heart being free to choose.

attack election found in the Bible...defend words not found in the Bible..


TULIP has done just as much harm as Good. but when studied..you will find Bible truth.

 

Unfortunately some people believe that TULIP represents the fullness of the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation.

 

Tulip is a popular Flower, Holland is famous for them.

 

"The Doctrine of Election" negates the Word of Jesus in John 3:16!

I do not hate Calvin or any person who adheres to the teaching, I hate the teaching because it is not consistent with the words of Jesus! </font>[/QUOTE]The Doctrine of Election DOES NOT negate John 3:16.

Read carefully:

The elect ARE the whosoevers. </font>[/QUOTE]If the elect are the whosoevers, there is no reason for the Gospel! because only those who are elect then will believe in Jesus. IT excludes ALL others! Foolish doctrine.

 

"The Doctrine of Election" negates the Word of Jesus in John 3:16!

I do not hate Calvin or any person who adheres to the teaching, I hate the teaching because it is not consistent with the words of Jesus! </font>[/QUOTE]The Doctrine of Election DOES NOT negate John 3:16.

Read carefully:

The elect ARE the whosoevers. </font>[/QUOTE]If the elect are the whosoevers, there is no reason for the Gospel! because only those who are elect then will believe in Jesus. IT excludes ALL others! Foolish doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]and again..youy show your foolish thoughts.

you have no idea about election,,do ya?

 

Then of course some people know more about flowers than they do about Scripture!

 

#1. World gets bad -- then it ends. Same as with the flood.

#2. The "reason" for going into the world is not because "God is not doing a good job" as HE "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" and as HE "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousnesa and judgment".

#3. The reason for going is not defeated by the success that God claims to have in Romans 2 with those who have no access to scripture at all!

The "reason" for going is the new Creation. Once we chose to accept the New Birth - we CHOSE to follow the "Way the Truth and the Life" (Jesus). We CHOSE to have the "mind of Christ" 1Cor 2. And God so LOVED the World that HE GAVE!

It is a like-minded love for our fellow man that drives us to minister to him/her. It is not our sense that God is not evangelizing without us.

I recently saw a testimony by a budhist in Vietnam who was visited by an angel - and given direction to a Christian group and given the basic Gospel points. She was told that Budhism was wrong and that the God of the Christians was the right one.

My argument is not that these visitations are the only means that God has for saving the unreached. But it is one example of His work.

At the end of time millions of lost people will be in hell who never heard a missionary at all. Millions of the saved will be in the same boat.

It is not because of the "quality of story" that determines the difference between them for all had a pretty poor "story" to go by. It is how the individual responded to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. The SAME issue that you and I face. The fact that we know MORE of the story does not change the fact that KNOWING is not "being saved".

We must submit to the will and indwelling of the Spirit of God - or we must join those in hell who never heard anything about the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. World gets bad -- then it ends. Same as with the flood.
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as in the days of noah...i agree

#2. The "reason" for going into the world is not because "God is not doing a good job" as HE "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" and as HE "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousnesa and judgment".
**************
the reason to go into the world is because we are told to go. "how shall the hear...without a preacher?"


#3. The reason for going is not defeated by the success that God claims to have in Romans 2 with those who have no access to scripture at all!
****************
ok bob..now we did to talk about this. you seem to think God does not need to send out workers to the field. we will return to this...we will debate this. you may want to reread romans 2. start at romans 1 and read to 5...to get the full flow. then we will talk


The "reason" for going is the new Creation. Once we chose to accept the New Birth - we CHOSE to follow the "Way the Truth and the Life" (Jesus). We CHOSE to have the "mind of Christ" 1Cor 2.
******************
i fully and strongly disagree with this. this is the "soft love"..and makes weak believers. the reason why we go..is we are told to go and we worship God so we go. we do...for we love God. James.."show me your love!!"

because our body is the home of our soul, at salvation our body comes with our faith.

in other words...what is inside of you..your body will animate.

or...your actions...tell your love story.

so..if we love God...we will serve God

there should never be this...."i wonder if i should share my God with this dude beside me". you should never even THINK this. it should just happen...just as you would talk about football. We share...for we love...it is always on our minds


And God so LOVED the World that HE GAVE
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ok..now your talking!! God gave-up...what can i now give-up?? God should be our all in all. He loved the world..we should love the world and tell the world about Him.

amen brother


It is a like-minded love for our fellow man that drives us to minister to him/her. It is not our sense that God is not evangelizing without us.
***************
1st part..Amen
2nd part...Well...we are part of Gods plan. does God NEED us? No..God needs no one. God will raise up the rocks to tell...if he has to. But God wants to use us...that is why He says...GO TELL


I recently saw a testimony by a budhist in Vietnam who was visited by an angel - and given direction to a Christian group and given the basic Gospel points. She was told that Budhism was wrong and that the God of the Christians was the right one.
**********
hummmm

My argument is not that these visitations are the only means that God has for saving the unreached. But it is one example of His work.
************
I never want to place God in a box and say He can not do something. God is God and can do as He wishes. However...you just do not see things like this..unless there was a need for it. Like when the Church was 1st being grounded and spread. many things happen in the Acts that we do not see today. I'll stop short of saying this did not happen...for i was not there...and God can if He wants too. But i will say...the only time i hear about visits like this from God..is in the newspapers at the check out lines. God uses the Church to reach out in most ALL cases. That is why we must GO.


At the end of time millions of lost people will be in hell who never heard a missionary at all.
************************
i'm not sure of the number...but many will...YES


Millions of the saved will be in the same boat.
*******************
nope..saved are SAVED..that is the full meaning. saved from hell means you are not going there. Bob..along these lines. Did st peter go to heaven?


It is not because of the "quality of story" that determines the difference between them for all had a pretty poor "story" to go by.
******************
you are so right there. hearing the word..is not salvation. hearing is only the beginning part of understanding. you still need the holy spirit...and faith..and grace.


It is how the individual responded to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.
*******************
i know what YOU mean when YOU say this. I say..the drawing is the understanding. if they understand..they will come to God


The SAME issue that you and I face. The fact that we know MORE of the story does not change the fact that KNOWING is not "being saved".
***********
you are so right on this one. knowing the gospel story..does not mean we understand

We must submit to the will and indwelling of the Spirit of God or we must join those in hell who never heard anything about the Gospel.
*****************
i would say this. One needs to take Christ as His Lord and leave the path to hell on which he is on.


In Christ....James

 

"The Doctrine of Election" negates the Word of Jesus in John 3:16!

I do not hate Calvin or any person who adheres to the teaching, I hate the teaching because it is not consistent with the words of Jesus! </font>[/QUOTE]The Doctrine of Election DOES NOT negate John 3:16.

Read carefully:

The elect ARE the whosoevers. </font>[/QUOTE]If the elect are the whosoevers, there is no reason for the Gospel! because only those who are elect then will believe in Jesus. IT excludes ALL others! Foolish doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gospel is food for the elect.

 

You can talk to Jesus about that! His word tells me it is different than you say.

 

here now says:

Wes says:

Here Now says:

Wes says:

*********************************************

Wes,
I consider ALL who are saved to be elect.

I am saved.
So, I am elect.
I feed in the Word daily. I eat my "Daily Bread".


So you are sadly mistaken.
The elect do NEED the Gospel.

 

Do you consider yourself to have been elected from the foundation of the world? OR are you "elected" because you believe in Jesus?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes,
I consider ALL who are saved to be elect.

I am saved.
So, I am elect.
I feed in the Word daily. I eat my "Daily Bread".


So you are sadly mistaken.
The elect do NEED the Gospel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wes asks:
Do you consider yourself to have been elected from the foundation of the world? OR are you "elected" because you believe in Jesus?
**********************************************


Yes and no

 

Do you consider yourself to have been elected from the foundation of the world? OR are you "elected" because you believe in Jesus? </font>[/QUOTE]If you ask me this...i would tell you that you need to ask God.

God is the one that elects, not me. He knows when he chose me. All i know is when i was saved.

Was i saved because he knew i would be saved? no..that is a silly statement...and goes againts grace..and most of all..it makes no sence.

BTW..there is another place to find the answer.

Try looking in the Bible


In Christ...James

 

It is a like-minded love for our fellow man that drives us to minister to him/her. It is not our sense that God is not evangelizing without us.
***************

My argument is not the God does not ALSO have us go out and "BEG others to be reconcilded to Christ" --- my argument is that God is not LIMITED to that (as Calvinism so NEEDS to see him limited). THus God is telling the TRUTH when He says "He so loved THE WORLD" and telling the TRUTH when He says Christ is the Atoning SAcrifices for the "sins of the WHOLE world" and telling the TRUTH when He says "He convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rather than all that being hyperbole, inflated marketing, false advertising to be spunned-down by lawereeze redefinitions - it is actually "True" --- "Yes really"!

 

My argument is not the God does not ALSO have us go out and "BEG others to be reconcilded to Christ" --- my argument is that God is not LIMITED to that (as Calvinism so NEEDS to see him limited). THus God is telling the TRUTH when He says "He so loved THE WORLD" and telling the TRUTH when He says Christ is the Atoning SAcrifices for the "sins of the WHOLE world" and telling the TRUTH when He says "He convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rather than all that being hyperbole, inflated marketing, false advertising to be spunned-down by lawereeze redefinitions - it is actually "True" --- "Yes really"! </font>[/QUOTE]Bob this is where your view goes south. You see and say calvin limits. Calvin does not teach this. Limited atonement is NOT needed. Limited atonement can happen if God chooses.

I have seen you use this phrase before "inflated markering" and "redefinitions". This is often stamped on a calvinist as a whole. Bob it is true that that many do this redefinitioning both from the calvin camp and from the arminiam camp. Just to see this we will look at two examples.

Calvinist sometimes will not say that God came to saved the world. yet many times we see in the BIBLE this is true.

Arminian wants to run and change the meaning of election..this too is redefinition.

That is why i say that many times the models do more harm then good. Now i study the models as all others do. Do i hold to each word? NO. a model is only a outline for study.

I do not see calvin as NEEDING to limit God. Maybe some do, for we have many that view God in a Box. Yet there are some that say God has limited atonement. And this is differnt than your statement above of needing to limit it.

If we say God can not atonesome sins...this is wrong for it limits God.
If we say God can limit..for He is God...this up holds God.

Both are talking about atonement and limits. One is ok to say..the other one places God in a Box.

is this true? YES REALLY


IN Christ...james

 

IF God had said "I give Christ as the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of SOME in the WORLD and not the WHOLE WORLD" you would have a leg to stand on.

As it is - God Sovereignly CHOSE to set this Atoning Sacrifice at the level of the "WHOLE WORLD" rather than "SOME in the World" as you state above.

Hence your problem remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
Do you think that Jesus redeemed the whole world?