Salvation sequence chart

IF God had said "I give Christ as the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of SOME in the WORLD and not the WHOLE WORLD" you would have a leg to stand on.

As it is - God Sovereignly CHOSE to set this Atoning Sacrifice at the level of the "WHOLE WORLD" rather than "SOME in the World" as you state above.

Hence your problem remains.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]1st off reread my post. I said SOME hold to this. i have yet to state my postion on atonement. I have on a few times pointed error in statements given, such as you blaimed in your statement "Calvinist NEED limited atonement for their model". I'm just claiming that is not the case for everyone. By saying God CAN limit is not the same as saying God NEEDS to limit.


However, there are other areas that must be addressed in a limited atonememnt model. One of theses areas is the one you bring up.."God so loved the world that he gave his only son to die." that seems to be a problem with limited atonement model.

I understand what calvin is saying and i can understand how it works from this view. But in the end i'm still not sure this even needs to be a point. From calvins side, if Christ atoned all sins on the cross, all have a right to heaven...for all sins of every man is covered by the blood. They go on to say, sence the fact is ,not all do go to heaven, then Christ death was for only those that God elects. This works, but then what do we do with Gods Love?

Or the other side we find God loving all the world and dieng for all the world and all sins covered by Christ blood..and this covering is only applied if one has faith in God. So..They see limited atonement as calvin teaches... saying some do not have a chance to be saved...and this too goes back to election. Yet in fact the atonement is limited to faith. The problem with this model is not understanding atonement.

If you read the OT we see pictures of atonement all over the place. Sacrifice is the key word in understanding atonement of sins. Also guilt of sins must be studyed. So where does Gods love come into this?


Well the battle as always goes back to..and is over election or mans freewill. Calvin claims only to the elect...and arminian says..no for all the world...cause that would not give others a chance.

My throughts are that one must apply the right meaning to election for atonement to be seen in the right light. When one does this..it is very clear and works.


In Christ...James

 

Indeed. And it is a problem that 3 point Calvinists do NOT have.

The problem is that in the complete Lev 16 sense of the definition for ATonement - it is MORE than "have a right" to salvation it is SAVED!

That is why 1John 2:2 is careful to NOT claim "ATONEMENT" but rather the "Atoning Sacrifice" NIV is what is made/completed at the Cross -- with the High Priestly Work of Christ (needed in the FULL scope of Atonement in Lev 16) not starting until AFTER the cross when Heb 7-10 SAYS it starts.

So even though I reject the 4 and 5 pt idea of "limited atonment at the CROSS" I DO agree with Calvinism at a more general level which is that in the end only the SAVED have complete Atonement.

And I agree because ONLY THEY engage in ALL aspects of Atonement as God defines it - INCLUDING their individual interaction/acceptance of the High Priestly work of Christ in their behalf.

I do not agree that ANY can say "I never had a chance" ... God DRAWs ALL and provides for ALL that saving door. "Behold I stand at the door and knock if ANY ONE hears my voice AND opens I WILL come in"Rev 3

In fact "HE IS The light that coming intot the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1

God's Law requires the 2nd death as payment for sin.

God's Love provides the payment demanded - at the cross - for the WHOLE WORLD.

But full benefit from that debt paid only happens on God's terms. One must submit, choose to be born again - LEAVE rebellion against God and accept the New Creation with the Law of God now "written on tablets of the human heart".

It is a condition that many are not "willing" to make so they "reject God's purpose for themselves".

In Christ,

Bob

 

He is the Worlds redeemer. He is sent as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14. And as such he not only shows up with that mission he ALSO pays the EXACT debt of sin owed by EVERY ONE "Not just OUR SINS but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

Thus the invitation is to ALL.

In fact He says "HE is the light that coming INTO the world enlightens EVERY ONE of mankind" John 1

In Christ,

Bob

 

The problem is that in the complete Lev 16 sense of the definition for ATonement - it is MORE than "have a right" to salvation it is SAVED!

That is why 1John 2:2 is careful to NOT claim "ATONEMENT" but rather the "Atoning Sacrifice" NIV is what is made/completed at the Cross -- with the High Priestly Work of Christ (needed in the FULL scope of Atonement in Lev 16) not starting until AFTER the cross when Heb 7-10 SAYS it starts.

So even though I reject the 4 and 5 pt idea of "limited atonment at the CROSS" I DO agree with Calvinism at a more general level which is that in the end only the SAVED have complete Atonement.

And I agree because ONLY THEY engage in ALL aspects of Atonement as God defines it - INCLUDING their individual interaction/acceptance of the High Priestly work of Christ in their behalf.
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Bob we may just be mixing terms here. Someday we need to just layout each part of atonement as we both see it. As you know i hold to a 2 fold guilt of sin that is covered in a 2 fold saving power of the cross. (atonement/redemption). It maybe that after our terms are covered (hum there is a pun), we may very close on this one thing. I do not take up WHO atonement is for in the debate, for i do not see the point of the debate. In the end both sides say it is only for those that are saved. But this is not to say, i don't have anything to say on this subject. Atonement is a great picture that brings blessings to us, not just in the fact it happens, but also in the study of it.

As you have pointed out, we need to understand the Sacrifices of Lev. ....you say Lev 16...i would add...all the sacrifices. The meat/grain sacrifice and the peace sacrifice also show a picture of what we get in Christs atoning power of the cross. The grain has oil which is a picture of the Holy Spirit. We also get that peace with God the Father from the guilt of sins. The OT is rich with pictures of the final atonement. Heb. shows how each of these rites were just pointing to the real one and the real one when it came, abrogated those pictures.

I do not agree that ANY can say "I never had a chance" ... God DRAWs ALL and provides for ALL that saving door. "Behold I stand at the door and knock if ANY ONE hears my voice AND opens I WILL come in"Rev 3

In fact "HE IS The light that coming intot the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1
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Now we are back to something we do not agree on. Not from my statement mind you. That statement posted above is me sharing what i think is MOST arminian standpoint. You do not agree with this based on ALL MANKIND do hear. Now this is what i disagree with. You have used roms 2 a few times to back your view. We need to open a tread on this and look at it.

Now there are 3 new passages you post to back your views that all hear the gospel. 2 are given the other is only stated. One is in Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock if ANY ONE hears my voice AND opens I WILL come in". This as you know is not saying all have heard. It is saying all can come.

Next is John 1 you use the NIV..right? lets look at the NIV

John 1
4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Christ came into a dark world...but the world did not understand the LIGHT

notice 9
9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
The true light (christ)...is the only light (understanding for salvation)...and came for all the world.

now notice 10
    10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Christ had come...yet the world did not know

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
he came to the jews...the choosen ones...the elect of the OT..and they did not receive Him


12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Yet...the call for salvation was to ALL....and if any came..they wourld be children of god.


13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Children Of God...not because they were Jews...nor because of there OWN WILL!!! to be Children of God.....nor because someone else wished his other family members into salvation.......but born of GOD..or born again.

so anyway..john does not teach all have heard gospel. In fact it teaches none hear/understood..not even the jews. but do not stop here. Keep reading till the end of chapter 3. the wedding picture is the best picture of salvation.

Now to the last passage...."if Christ be lifted up...He will draw all men to Him".

I have been over this before with wes. This passage is talking about Christ end of His private ministry and going into his public ministry. Read and see if you agree. If not, I'll go over it with you in more detail.

 

Well you are right about our needing to break this out into different points.

Lets take Rev 3 and the way the salvation "process" is illustrated by God.

You say that you will admit that "This as you know is not saying all have heard. It is saying all can come."

Lets start there.

The way this illustrates that ALL can come - is by having Christ standing at the door for ALL and having ALL on the inside WITHOUT Christ while Christ is outside knocking.

This shows the condition of ALL.

We are all in need of Christ.

We are all without Christ (prior to our UNION with Christ which EVEN Calvinists admit is only brought about by regeneration)


20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYone hears My voice AND OPENS the door, I WILL come IN to HIM and will dine with HIM, and HE with Me

Here we see the case of those NOT in union with Christ – NOT in fellowship with Christ. As even some Calvinists will admit – regeneration is the first point where a person IS in union with Christ.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1533.html#000005


Just getting to this simple point is a huge step forward in the dialog so far.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a big difference.

I hold to an "Atoning Sacrifice" where payment is provided for debt OWED (the certificate of DEBT nailed to the Cross Col 2) for the sins of the world (the WHOLE WORLD) - but full acceptance of that gift is "on God's terms" as defined in Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock".

Christ is holding that gift of freedom and eternal life BUT HE SAYS we must open the door.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As for John 1 --

Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.

In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ". (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.

Born of blood - refering to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

And though He comes as light into the World (the same WORLD that He made) and "Enlightens every man" - yet it is not to force the will - but to compell "every one of mankind" to action, as it convicts and draws mankind to choose light - to choose to OPEN the door.

Yet

IN the CONTEXT of God acting on man's behalf - the sinner can and often does STILL choose darkness.

Nevertheless - as John points out in Rev 3 -- "Behold I stand at the door and knock"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wait Bob,

are you saying that some calvinist do not believe the elect NEEDS Christ? I may be wrong , so you need to tell me if i am, but it sounds like your saying that the calvinist teach that the elect are already saved. and therefore are not in this picture of Christ at hearts door.

Is this what you are saying? i think the Bible says we ALL need Christ


In Christ...James

 

Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.

In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ". (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.

Born of blood - refering to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

And though He comes as light into the World (the same WORLD that He made) and "Enlightens every man" - yet it is not to force the will - but to compell "every one of mankind" to action, as it convicts and draws mankind to choose light - to choose to OPEN the door.

Yet

IN the CONTEXT of God acting on man's behalf - the sinner can and often does STILL choose darkness.

Nevertheless - as John points out in Rev 3 -- "Behold I stand at the door and knock"!!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Wait ...BOB BOB BOB.....not you BOB.

i mean my ol my...what happen to context? what happen to "details"?? You of all people bob.

take the passage for what it says...
how about some face value??

you ask me..NOT to force the will? please bob...it will be forcing it not to say it is there. how about "all means all"?
have you ever seen that posted?
HAVE YOU EVER SAID THAT ?

bob are you going to be just like the others?
run from the truth? hey bob..what is this man??

Please of all people that cries CONTEXT....use context..

now i want you to try again on this Bob. strip all the "for-teaching"...or the set paths you have in your mind...and read this one text...and tell me with all your heart...that you mean what you just wrote. I mean..before God Himself.

this twist is more like somthing that comes from wes.

no wait..that was wrong to wes. i have NEVER SEEN ANY ONE..pull in other thoughts..just as you did. things not in the text..and pass over things in the text.

Peeeeeeeeeeeeelease

 

Bob I thought I would just read your words and do what you say. I wanted to do this last night but after reading it 3 times my head was spinning to much. Lets apply this just as you say,

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Bob Says............

As for John 1 --

quote:
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.
Ok this is what you are saying the light of the world is to all mankind.
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James says...........

So is it fair to read verse 5 this way…the light of men …or the only light that man had…or the only hope for man….the light of men that shines to all mankind was sent from God…and the darkness that the world was found in when the light of man came….did not comprehend the light of men that came from God.

Now 7

He..this is John …..came as a witness…and also an example for what we should do..if I can add that….to testify about the light of the world…or the light of men. So that all might believe through him…or though the light of men…or through Christ.

Now the last part we must deal with. When it says “so that all might believe”…is this saying the gospel is to all?...or is this saying all the whole world...WILL believe. I think its saying the gospel is to all…for all do not believe and become saved. What do you think Bob?

So at this point there is no change in what I said..and the way you read it. I just think you read it strange. But in the end…the light can to the world..and the world did not understand its need of the light.
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Bob says....

quote:
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.

In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ". (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.
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James says……….

There is a lot on this so I broke this one up.

You say…9 “light comes into the world…the same world as in 10. Yes only one world to deal with in these verses…
Ok now you come down to 12 to get the action which is “received Christ….so that we can see the result of the active voice. Then you state..” It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ".

No…it does not. But why bring this up? This is..as you point out below…a standing offer. If this offer is taken up..darkness must turn to light. Agree?

Then you say…"children of A God" just does not work here. Where does it not work? You mean change the wording? Why must we remove “children of A God”.

Then you add…"Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. Again…why do we need to over look these 2 statements?

It seems like to me you are saying..if the truth hurts…overlook it. Or are you talking about the greek?
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Bob says………

Born of blood - refering to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.
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James says……

Gods part…DONE
MAN’s part…did not receive him
Standing offer………come and I will receive
Mans part……….did not come
Gods part…if you come you will become children of God
Mans part….did not know him
Gods part….you will be born again
Mans part…..when understanding comes..though the holy spirit..the standing offer was set in place…by Grace…thought faith. SALVATION
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Bob says…

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.
******************************************
James says……

Say what? The passage is clear…mans part of faith..is there. But faith can not happen. Man does not understand..so something must give.
******************************************

Bob says………

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

And though He comes as light into the World (the same WORLD that He made) and "Enlightens every man" - yet it is not to force the will - but to compell "every one of mankind" to action, as it convicts and draws mankind to choose light - to choose to OPEN the door.
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James says...

Now add this to your list Bob. The world did not receive Him. The world was in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend. This is what is in the passage…some how you over looked it. Where do you place this in you lineup?

Bob..i do not over look this part…or the standing offer. You want to push past the darkness…and throw out “not by mans will”….and do away with “other things that do not fit your doctrine.

God sent
Christ was THE LIGHT
The world did not understand..
The offer is still there…
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Bob says……..

Yet

quote:
John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

IN the CONTEXT of God acting on man's behalf - the sinner can and often does STILL choose darkness.

Nevertheless - as John points out in Rev 3 -- "Behold I stand at the door and knock"!!
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James says….

I put it this way..the sinner WILL ALWAYS choose darkness unless understanding comes


Bob I have asked you this before. Have you ever been to a 3rd world nation..sharing Gods word? Man does NOT come to God. No one seeks God on their own. That is why we are told to GO&gt;&gt;


In Christ…James