Salvation understanding and Regeneration question

[OldRegular]

This has nothing to do regeneration, unless they are proposing that God only slightly regenerates some, some not at all, some He regenerates just enough to be saved, and other He regenerates them to the point they believe and continue in faith.

In your unbridled desire to dump on anything I post you give a completely asinine eisegesis of the parable of the sower. It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

Matthew 13:18-23
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

John Gill's exegesis of the above passage should enlighten you unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.


Ver. 22. He also that receiveth seed among the thorns, &c. The hearer that is like to the thorny ground, on which the seed fell,

is he that heareth the word; not a profane sinner, nor a reviler of religion, or a persecutor of the saints; but one that not only shows a love to the word, but who seems to have his heart broken under it, and by it, his conscience tender, and his life outwardly reformed; one, who besides his being a settled, diligent, understanding, and affectionate hearer of the word, and a believing receiver and professor of it, seems to have a thorough work of grace upon him, to have the fallow ground of his heart ploughed up, and to be truly contrite; the thorns being under ground, and not yet to be seen, but afterwards appear:

and the care of this world; not the care of another world, nor a care about spiritual things in this world, nor even a proper, laudable care of the things of this present life, but an anxious and immoderate care of them; which, as thorns, is very perplexing and distressing to the persons themselves, and is what is vain and fruitless.

And the deceitfulness of riches: in opposition to some riches, the riches of grace and glory, which have no deceit in them; and not riches themselves, bare worldly riches but the deceitfulness of them, is here taken notice of; for riches often delude, and lead persons out of the right way, out of God's way; cause them to err from the faith; they do not give the satisfaction they promise, and often do not continue, as is expected: and are as thorns, pungent to the owners of them, who pierce themselves through with many sorrows in acquiring and keeping them; and are frequently injurious to others, their fellow creatures; and in the issue are useless and unprofitable, especially with respect to the concerns of another world. Mark adds, "and the lusts of other things"; besides riches; and Luke adds, and "pleasures of this life"; meaning divers other worldly lusts and pleasures, such as the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life: which also, like thorns, are distracting and afflicting, sooner or later; are vain, and unprofitable, and lead to destruction: and these are called "the pleasures of this life", in opposition to, and distinction from the pleasures of that which is to come, which are real and lasting:

choke the word: by overspreading all the powers and faculties of the soul, as thorns do a field; by overtopping the seed of the word, and by hiding it from the influences of the sun of righteousness, and rain of grace; and by attracting everything in the heart to themselves; and by bearing and pressing down all thought, concern, and care for the use, fruitfulness, and increase of the word.

And he becometh unfruitful: as in such circumstances he must needs be; or if there be any show of fruit in outward respect to the word, in an historical faith of it, in an external profession, and outward reformation, "yet brings not fruit to perfection", as Luke says; these in process of time shrivel up, wither away, and come to nothing.

Ver. 23. But he that received seed into the good ground, &c. The hearer compared to good ground into which the seed fell, is he that heareth the word and understandeth it; has a new and spiritual understanding given him, feels the power of it on his heart, enlightening and quickening him; has an application of it made to him by the Spirit of God, and can discern the worth and excellency of it, and distinguish it from all others; and, as Mark says, "receives it"; as the word of God in faith, and with the love of it, and with all readiness and meekness; and, as Luke observes, "keeps it"; holds it fast against all opposition with great struggling; will not part with it at any rate, nor depart from it in the least, nor entertain any doubt about it; but abides by it, stands fast in it, and is valiant for it: and this he does in and with "an honest and good heart"; which no man naturally has; nor can any man make his heart so: this is the work of God, and is owing to his efficacious grace. This is an heart of flesh, a new and right heart, and spirit; an heart to fear God, to love him, and to trust in him; in which Christ dwells by faith; in which the Spirit of God has his temple; and in which every grace is implanted: and such an one, as he hears with a strict, and an honest intention, and in the exercise of grace; so he holds fast the word he hears, understands and receives, with all faithfulness and honesty:

which also beareth fruit and bringeth forth, some an hundred fold, some sixty, and some thirty: the fruit bore, and brought forth by such an hearer, is the true fruit of grace and righteousness, and is all from Christ, under the influences of the Spirit, through the word and ordinances, as means, and issues in the glory of God; and though not brought forth in the same quantity in all, yet is of the same quality; and is brought forth, as Luke says, "with patience": constantly, and continually, in all seasons, in old age, and even unto death; and is at last brought "to perfection", holds, and remains unto the end.

 

[OldRegular]

Allan, I doubt it but you may be interested in John Gill's exegesis of Ephesians 2:4-8 unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ver. 4. But God, who is rich in mercy, &c. Mercy is a perfection of the divine nature, and is essential to God; and may be considered with respect to the objects of it, either as general, extending to all men in a providential way; or as special, reaching only to some in a way of grace; for though mercy is his nature, yet the display and exertion of it towards any object, is the act of his will; and special mercy, with all the blessings and benefits of it, is only exhibited in Christ Jesus: and God is said to be "rich" in it, because he is free and liberal in dispensing it, and the effects of it; and that to a large number of persons, in great abundance and variety, by various ways, and in divers instances; as in the covenant of grace, in the mission of Christ, in redemption by him, in regeneration, in pardon of sin, and in eternal salvation; and yet it is inexhaustible and perpetual; and this sets forth the excellency and glory of it:

for his great love wherewith he loved us; the love of God to his chosen people is very great, if it be considered who it is that has loved them, God and not man; who is an infinite, unchangeable, and sovereign Being; and his love is like himself, for God is love; it has heights and depths, and lengths and breadths immeasurable; it admits of no variation nor alteration; and is altogether free, arising from himself, and not from any motives and conditions in men: and if the persons themselves are considered, who are the objects of it, men, sinful men, unworthy of the divine notice and regard; and that these are loved personally, particularly, and distinctly, and not others; nakedly, and not theirs, or for any thing in them, or done by them, and that notwithstanding their manifold sins and transgressions: to which may be added, that this love is represented as a past act; and indeed it is from everlasting, and is antecedent to their being quickened, and was when they were dead in trespasses and sins; and is the source and spring of the blessing next mentioned: so the divine love is often called in the Cabalistic writings of the Jews. "great love".

Ver. 5. Even when we were dead in sins, &c. [See Gill on "Eph 2:1".]

Hath quickened us together with Christ: which may be understood either of regeneration, when a soul that is dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is quickened and made alive; a principle of life is infused, and acts of life are put forth; such have their spiritual senses, and these in exercise; they can feel the load and weight of sin; see their lost state and condition, the odiousness of sin, and the beauty of a Saviour, the insufficiency of their own righteousness, and the fulness and suitableness of Christ's; breathe after divine and spiritual things; speak in prayer to God, and the language of Canaan to fellow Christians; move towards Christ, exercise grace on him, act for him, and walk on in him: and this life they have not from themselves, for previous to it they are dead, and in this quickening work are entirely passive; nor can regenerate persons quicken themselves, when in dead and lifeless frames, and much less unregenerate sinners; but this is God's act, the act of God the Father; though not exclusive of the Son, who quickens whom he will; nor of the Spirit, who is the Spirit of life from Christ; and it is an instance of the exceeding greatness, both of his power and love; and this may be said to be done with Christ, because he is the procuring and meritorious cause of it, by his death and resurrection from the dead; and is the author and efficient cause of it; and he is the matter of it, it is not so much the quickened persons that live, as Christ that lives in them, and it is the same life he himself lives; and because he lives, they shall live also; it is in him as in the fountain, and in them as in the stream: or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:

by grace ye are saved: the Claromontane copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "by whose grace"; and the Arabic and Ethiopic versions, "by his grace"; either by the grace of him that quickens, or by the grace of Christ with whom they were quickened; the Syriac version renders it, "by his grace he hath redeemed us"; which seems to refer to the redeeming grace of Christ; and so the Ethiopic version, "and hath delivered us by his grace"; and there is a change of the person into "us", which seems more agreeable to what goes before, and follows after; [see Gill on "Eph 2:8"].

Ver. 6. And hath raised us up together, &c. Which refers either to a spiritual resurrection, to a resurrection from a death in sin, to a spiritual life; and which is the effect of almighty power, and of rich grace and mercy; and in which Christ is concerned: he is the efficient cause of it, he raises the dead in this sense, and quickens whom he will; and his resurrection is the virtual cause of it; and also the exemplar, between which there is a great likeness; both bear the same name; both are a declaration of sonship; and both the first step to glory in Christ and in his people; and both are instances of the exceeding greatness of God's power: or it may refer to a corporeal resurrection, said to be already, because it is in faith and hope, and because of the certainty of it; and to be together with Christ, because of the conformity of it to his resurrection, and to the influence of which it is owing; and chiefly because that when Christ rose from the dead, all his people rose in him, and with him, as their head and representative, he being the firstfruits of them that slept; so called, in allusion to the firstfruits of the harvest under the law, which represented and sanctified the whole:

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Christ is entered into heaven as the forerunner, to take possession of it for his people, in their name; and to prepare mansions of glory for them, and in these they sit; which imports honour, pleasure, rest from labour and weariness, and safety and security: and what adds to the happiness of this is, that it is together with all the saints, and with Christ himself; and in these they are made to sit already; which is so said, because of the certainty of it, for the same glory Christ has, they shall have; and because of their right to such a blessing; and chiefly because Christ their head is set down therein, who sustains their persons, bears their names on his heart, and represents them.

 

[OldRegular]

Allan, I doubt it but you may be interested in John Gill's exegesis of Ephesians 2:4-8 unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ver. 7. That in the ages to come, &c. This is the end of God's permitting sin, in which men are morally dead; and of his suffering them to go on in sin, in a state of unregeneracy; and of his quickening them with Christ, and raising them up, and causing them to sit together with him: namely, that

he might show the exceeding riches of his grace: riches being added to grace, denote the valuableness of it, as well as its plenty and abundance; and also the freeness and liberality of God in giving it; and likewise the enriching nature of it: and these riches are exceeding; they exceed the riches of this world, in the immenseness of them, being unsearchable; and in the inexhaustibleness of them, for though such large treasures have been expended upon such numbers of persons, yet there is still the same quantity; and in the duration of them, they last forever; and in the profit and satisfaction they yield, when other riches fade away, are not profitable nor satisfying; and they exceed the conception, knowledge, and comprehension of men; and intend the utmost stretch of the grace of God: and which are evidently and remarkably displayed,

in his kindness towards us through Christ Jesus; in providing him as a Saviour for his people; in the mission of him into this world; in not sparing, but giving him up as a sacrifice to justice for their sins; and blessing them with all spiritual blessings in him: all which God designed to show forth, in the ages to come; meaning either the ages following to the end of time, in distinction from the ages that were past: hence it appears, that the world was not expected to be immediately at an end; and that the writings of the New Testament were to be continued, and the Gospel preached unto the end of time, in which the riches of divine grace are held forth to view; and that these ages to come, are seasons and days of grace; for a day of grace will never be over, as long as the Gospel of grace is preached; and that the instances of grace through Christ, and in the times of the apostles, are encouraging to men in ages succeeding; and that the same grace that was displayed then, is shown forth in these: or else the world to come is meant, which will take place at the end of this; and may lead us to observe, that there will be ages in the other world; and that God has not only prepared a great deal of grace and glory for his people, but he has appointed ages enough for them to enjoy it in; and that their riches lie in another world, and are in some measure hid; and that these are the produce of the grace of God; and that the exceeding riches of that will be then manifested, when it will also appear that God's giving grace to men, is not only with a view to his own glory, but is an act of kindness to them; and that eternal happiness will be heartily and freely bestowed upon them, and that through Jesus Christ their Lord: the Syriac version renders it, "that unto ages to come he might show", &c. that is, to men in ages to come; the sense is much the same.

Ver. 8. For by grace are ye saved, &c. This is to be understood, not of temporal salvation, nor of preservation in Christ, nor of providential salvation in order to calling, and much less of being put in a way of salvation, or only in a salvable state; but of spiritual salvation, and that actual; for salvation was not only resolved upon, contrived and secured in the covenant of grace, for the persons here spoken to, but it was actually obtained and wrought out for them by Christ, and was actually applied unto them by the Spirit; and even as to the full enjoyment of it, they had it in faith and hope; and because of the certainty of it, they are said to be already saved; and besides, were representatively possessed of it in Christ their head: those interested in this salvation, are not all mankind, but particular persons; and such who were by nature children of wrath, and sinners of the Gentiles; and it is a salvation from sin, Satan, the law, its curse and condemnation, and from eternal death, and wrath to come; and includes all the blessings of grace and glory; and is entirely owing to free grace: for by grace is not meant the Gospel, nor gifts of grace, nor grace infused; but the free favour of God, to which salvation in all its branches is ascribed; as election, redemption, justification, pardon, adoption, regeneration, and eternal glory: the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "by his grace", and so some copies; and it may refer to the grace of all the three Persons; for men are saved by the grace of the Father, who drew the plan of salvation, appointed men to it, made a covenant with his Son, in which it is provided and secured, and sent him into the world to obtain it; and by the grace of the Son, who engaged as a surety to effect it, assumed human nature, obeyed and suffered in it for that purpose, and has procured it; and by the grace of the Spirit, who makes men sensible of their need of it, brings it near, sets it before them, and applies it to them, and gives them faith and hope in it: hence it follows,

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh 6:65 Php 1:29 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

 

[Allan]

Allan

In your unbridled desire to dump on anything I post you missed the message I was trying to get across.

This has nothing to do with anything nor is it factual. I do post disputes to certain aspects of your views, but I do so because it is a debate board - don't take it so personally or seriously. What I was doing with your post was simply pointing out exactly what I previously stated about being saved and in Christ while being sinfilled, unbelieving and unrepentent. You post ofwhich I presumed was a copy paste from some thing else and not so much your own words which is I said OldReg's 'post' and not so much you yourself.

Now you may disagree with what I say but at least consider that I made the following introductory statement:

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ.

It was considered and I believe unscriptural because the point of the whole thing is that you are saved first and united with Christ while still in your trespasses and sins, unbelieving and unrepentant.

Additionally, what I posted, I tried to edit later (because I [am] at work and can get busy so I'm not able to edit as I'd like at times) What I wanted to go back and remove was most everything except the first portion about being regenerate/saved and then believing as well as the last portion. The rest I was responding to as if it was a normal post and after looking it over I wished to correct it but it was over the alotted time of 120 minutes.

 

[Allan]

John Gill's exegesis of the above passage should enlighten you unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.

Sorry but my salvation does not depend upon whether or not I believe John Gill. John Gill was a great man and was greatly wrong on some things like many men are. And just so you know it is against BB rules to question a persons salvation. Please remember that as you type your diatribes.

Ver. 20. But he that receiveth the seed into stony places, &c. Such a hearer, who is like to the stony ground on which the seed fell, is one that is not an accidental hearer of the word, as the former, but a settled constant hearer of it; and not one that is careless and negligent, but diligent and attentive, and has some understanding of what he hears;

the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it: he is one that not only constantly attends upon it, but he receives it; he gives an assent to it, he believes in it historically, makes a profession of his faith in it, and holds it for a while, being under some convictions of the truth of it: and having some speculative notions of it, and light in his understanding and judgment in it, he has some flashes of natural affection for it, and delivers some outward expressions of pleasure and delight in it, like Herod, and the hearers of John the Baptist; but has no heart work, and so is like to the rock in stony ground; the natural hardness of his heart continues, it remains unbroken by the word, without any true sense of sin, and repentance for it, and destitute of spiritual life, and of true faith, love, and joy: hence, as his profession is taken up in haste, immediately, upon a flash of affection, and a little head knowledge, it does not last long, nor prove honourable.

Please explain how a man who can not know any spiritual truth and be under conviction (any convicition) of 'truth' which he can not know because it is spiritually discerned? The natural man can not know anything about sin or righteousness because these are things the Holy Spirit must show us. Thus they can not be naturally discerned with common understanding of man mental facalties. As I stated previously, I'm not saying he is saved but can a man know these things unless they have been revealed to him by God and thus are now able to spiritually discern what is truth. (thus in YOUR view, the man is regenerate and is the very reason for my statement about only slightly regenerate).

for when tribulation or persecution ariseth, because of the word; which is often the case, and must be expected by those who embrace the Gospel, profess the name of Christ, and are willing to live godly in him. Tribulation may intend some lesser and lighter troubles for the sake of Christ, and his Gospel; such as the revilings and reproaches of men, loss of character, and trade, &c. and persecution may design something more public and vehement; such as confiscation of goods, imprisonment, and danger of life, the most exquisite tortures, and death in the most cruel form and shape; things very disagreeable to flesh and blood, and which cannot be endured, and submitted to, by persons without a principle of grace, by one that has no root in himself. Luke calls this a time "of temptation", or trial, as it is either way, both by private troubles, and more public persecutions: these try men's principles and professions, and whether the truth of grace is in them or not; and where it is not in any person,

by and by he is offended; at the cross; he shrinks back from it, does not care to take it up, and follow Christ; but drops his religion, and the profession of it; apostatises, falls away, and comes to nothing.

I'm just curious here... where does this leave Peter since he denied Christ, not once but thrice and even swore to try to prove his point.


Again, I agree that ONLY ONE in the parable of the sower is regenerate/saved. But how a man, who can not know any spiritual truth be under conviction (any convicition) of 'truth', which he can not know because it is spiritually discerned?

The natural man can not know anything about sin or righteousness because these are things the Holy Spirit must show us. Thus they can not be naturally discerned with common understanding of mans mental facalties. As I stated previously, I'm not saying he is saved but how can a man know these things unless they have been revealed to him by God and therefore are now able to spiritually discern not only what is but that it is.. truth.
It doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[Allan]

In your unbridled desire to dump on anything I post you give a completely asinine eisegesis of the parable of the sower. It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

1. This is a debate board so when we typically interact we have been on opposite views. This is not dumping but disputing your views.

As for 'asinine eisegesis' .. LOL.. (that is funny coming from you) it is your privilage to believe what you wish. However, I didn't say all four were saved.

The rest of this proves nothing against what I stated regarding regeneration is not that which comes faith, but is the very salvation of God through faith.

Now, I do agree with you that the Regeneration makes one saved. But I must also follow course with the scripture that states believe and be saved; repent our you will like wise perish; when you 'hear God' do not harden your hearts. Regeneration is that which transpires by faith, almost the very same moment of time and yet still not pior to it.

 

[Allan]

What does this call to all look like, is it the preaching of the body of Christ as a result to the great commision or is it the secret drawing ot the Holy Spirit?

There is no faith apart from the hearing of God's word/truth and there is no hearing of God's word/truth unless the Spirit of God speak to us that we might know what that truth/word is.

However, the Spirit of God can work on a person through other means such as Nature (Rom 1) and the conscience (Rom 2). Yet it is the gospel that brings all these spiritual truths together which in turn shows us not only in whom we are to believe but why.

In a sense yes many are called by God, in my understanding, but its as if none come unless God teams with bride and creates the desire, thirst, hearing with heart, etc... Rev. 22:17... So what I am saying is that the HS is not always working on people, and seems to be misunderstood by inner feelings, but I may of course be wrong

I believe that feelings are something that God has given us in order gauge to an extent certain things, and that can include the above. HOWEVER, because it so easily manipulated it should the last thing we look at. I would not have known myself cleansed of all my sins if the very burden and blackness of it were not lifted off me at the moment of faith. Our faith is not a blind faith but a faith that exhibits itself in definate results we can know and at times even feel.

2nd part... If the Holy Spirit isn't working on all people then how are we to understand Jesus statement that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. And couple that with Romans 1 and 2 which states that ungodly even through nature and the conscience know sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come. Now if these are spiritual truths (and they are because we need the Holy Spirit to reveal them) how do they understand them unless God the Holy Spirit has been working on them.
How can Jesus be the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world (John 1) if God does not work on all?

Yes in scripture there are many and many more who reject the word of God through the mouth of apostles and prophets, even Jesus Himself. The word holds us all responsible 100% and should give us great fear before God as to move us in and through the word in search of direction, and we shouldnt put the heat on God as if we wont obey the word because we cant due to sin.

How can a man be Justly held responsible for something he had no choice or option in?? You can't, it is diametrically opposed to justice which is one of the attributes of God.

Better question: why does scripture state we are damned after we reject God and not before (2 Thes 2:12).
Why does scripture state that it is only after we reject God's truths that God THEN gives us over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1)?
How can He "give us over" unless He first sought us?

If we have no choice, the rejection or acceptance is of no consequence to our eternal destiny therefore faith is unnecessary in order to be saved.

With regard back to your above - more importantly no one will care about the Word of God much less even care to search it unless God the Holy Spirit is working upon them. Agreed? Think about it... Where is that fear of the Lord coming from? Is it not from the truth revealed by God that they are yet attaining but not yet yeilding to.

The truth is that we are to take full responsibility in trying to obey, but understand that without the Spirit it is in fact impossible to please God.

Actaully it states that without 'faith' it is impossible to please God.
Scripture states explictly that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit "by faith"
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

But I will state more in line with what you mean.. No man will believe unless the Holy Spirit is at work upon him.

So my point is yes we reject and yes it is our fault, but on the flip side we always reject God without God's Spirit moving us, but it in no way is God required to give us mercy in our walks.

I disagree here, and refer you back to all those passages I keep giving you.

So yes many are called by the church (22:3 he sent sevants to call). v14, many are called (by servants) few are chosen (by the king).

Brother, no where in the any place of scripture does this parable ever state they were chosen by the King. Becareful trying to place more into a parable than it is trying to display. They were called 'chosen' because they were the ones the King desired; those who heard the call and came. The chosen were those who responded in positive manner to the calling. This however does not explain election/chosen from God's perspective but allows us to see it from mans.

All are called in the exact same fashion and manner, there was no difference explicit nor implied. However only the chosen of God came via that calling.

Proverbs 1 seems to me to be a chapter to our responsibility, to turn and be wise. Because who knows if God is secretly moving or not in someone or some event while its occuring?

We know because the scripture states explictly that "I called and you refused".
Yes, it does concern our responsiblity but is more than just that. I describes that God speak with them, called to them and they rejected Him. God was calling and it was refused.

This is faith, by doing it fully in reliance upon God to be moving as promised. I am totally against any feeling of God by the way, its dangerous.

Then do you dismiss Joy, peace, fear, sorrow, and other such things that God uses and chooses to give us? I agree that they should not be a guide but of some guidance they can be.

As blind as I was (and still am) I just cannot say that the things that caused me to make all of those decisions didnt spring from my knowledge, because I knew nothing of wisdom or much about the bible for that matter.

If you knew nothing about the bible how could your knowing about God bring you to repentence if you saw your sin before Him? If it was fear of the Lord, how can you state that you knew nothing of wisdom when you just stated that you agree with proverb fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom?
There is no such thing as blind faith. We place our faith in something because we have been persuaded that IT IS truth or at the very least OF it's truth. To say you placed faith in something without any knowledge is a misunderstanding about faith and what it is. Faith is an action based upon something you claim to believe is true. It is either a noun (Jesus, or our beliefs as a whole) or a verb (action) but it isn't some nebulous thing we are trying to figure out how to work or use.

There is no way I taught or anyone else taught me what to do in any of my choices at conversion in the sense of producing wise choices. I have to ask myself, why did I have such a burning desire from the first time I encountered God in His word in the sense to hear and obey Him with honor and love for the cross, while I have met and tried to help many people who just dont get it or know what to do while wanting it? The truth is that my prayer is for God to guide them as He did me. So this is why I say that I didnt just make a lucky decision of exercising faith (and many other reactions to God) while they didnt, because none of us understand it at the time, I dont think. I want to say it was like God guided me through faith somehow as continues to do so and the faith must have been from God.

A decision is never random. We either believe something or we don't. Scripture states we don't because we choose something over God, or we do because we accept what God says. Some people are not yet at the point God wishes to move upon them, and others have rejected God already. It is not for us to say one way or another but to pray for them all to hear and come the knowledge of truth. God will determine when and where and why not.

God does not guide us through faith. We obey in faith, God guides us through His Spirit and His word. I would say a study that change not only my life but the dynamic of my prayer life was doing a concise word study on the word faith, especially Hebrews 11:1 As I said faith isn't some nebulous thing we are trying to understand. It is an action resulting from our belief in a truth or it is speaking of the truth itself (Jesus, or our faith/beliefs on the whole).

so again from our lense this must be a fearful thing 1:7, and must give our all to God, which is our responsibility.

Can't and wont argue there :thumbs:

[/quote]But my next question: God is omnipresent, so He is before all men right now, do you think He waits for people to believe or do you think He is the one that makes known to us our responsibility and need for savior due to sin disease as a result producing much fear? IOW- in the midst of preaching many hear, but few see thinggs in the way Proverbs 1 puts it, so is that all on the man or is that God choosing that person?[/QUOTE]
I believe that scripture states He is waiting for the appointed time of each of His dear saints to believe and be saved, for He is longsuffering in this.

However, I don't agree that few see things the way Proverbs 1 declares but that all men see it (Romans 1:18-32; 2; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Eze 33:4-19) and as one OT saint declared "choose you this day whom you will serve", as with a NT saint who said 'when you hear the Lord do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation". Thus all men will know, but not all will believe what God said is true.

 

[zrs6v4]

There is no faith apart from the hearing of God's word/truth and there is no hearing of God's word/truth unless the Spirit of God speak to us that we might know what that truth/word is.

However, the Spirit of God can work on a person through other means such as Nature (Rom 1) and the conscience (Rom 2). Yet it is the gospel that brings all these spiritual truths together which in turn shows us not only in whom we are to believe but why..

I agree if what you are saying is that faith comes by hearing and understanding the Word, and not by general revelation.

I believe that feelings are something that God has given us in order gauge to an extent certain things, and that can include the above. HOWEVER, because it so easily manipulated it should the last thing we look at. I would not have known myself cleansed of all my sins if the very burden and blackness of it were not lifted off me at the moment of faith. Our faith is not a blind faith but a faith that exhibits itself in definate results we can know and at times even feel..

I agree

2nd part... If the Holy Spirit isn't working on all people then how are we to understand Jesus statement that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. And couple that with Romans 1 and 2 which states that ungodly even through nature and the conscience know sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come...

Im not sure. I didnt really mean it like God isnt always working and aware of all creation, but for salvation alone it seems. Like I said I will accept the fact that I dont understand this fully, so I may be wrong

How can a man be Justly held responsible for something he had no choice or option in?? You can't, it is diametrically opposed to justice which is one of the attributes of God. .

If I went to another country and did something against the rules I wasnt aware and they took me to prison and gave me a judgment, I still broke the law and deserve justice whether I knew or not. Im not saying we dont make choices, but we make foolish choices blindly a lot based on our sinful desires. maybe I misunderstood your point?

Better question: why does scripture state we are damned after we reject God and not before (2 Thes 2:12).
Why does scripture state that it is only after we reject God's truths that God THEN gives us over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1)?
How can He "give us over" unless He first sought us?.

Maybe you can break down one of these to show me where your line of thought is?

If we have no choice, the rejection or acceptance is of no consequence to our eternal destiny therefore faith is unnecessary in order to be saved.

With regard back to your above - more importantly no one will care about the Word of God much less even care to search it unless God the Holy Spirit is working upon them. Agreed? Think about it... Where is that fear of the Lord coming from? Is it not from the truth revealed by God that they are yet attaining but not yet yeilding to. .

the first point, Im not quite comprehending, but the second is right.

Actaully it states that without 'faith' it is impossible to please God.
Scripture states explictly that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit "by faith"
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

But I will state more in line with what you mean.. No man will believe unless the Holy Spirit is at work upon him. .

Yes, but let me ask you a question based on some responses above. Do you think the Holy Spirit is always at work on everyone? if not then He is not always working like I was thinking, correct? So then if He is always at work then we must always be enabled to do godly things or in the unbelievers shoes, believe.

I disagree here, and refer you back to all those passages I keep giving you.

Brother, no where in the any place of scripture does this parable ever state they were chosen by the King. Becareful trying to place more into a parable than it is trying to display. They were called 'chosen' because they were the ones the King desired; those who heard the call and came. The chosen were those who responded in positive manner to the calling. This however does not explain election/chosen from God's perspective but allows us to see it from mans.

All are called in the exact same fashion and manner, there was no difference explicit nor implied. However only the chosen of God came via that calling..

ok I accept that, but I will have to look into it, hah

Then do you dismiss Joy, peace, fear, sorrow, and other such things that God uses and chooses to give us? I agree that they should not be a guide but of some guidance they can be..

no I didnt mean it to that extreme, but simply to be careful and let the Word of God remain higher than feelings, with other religions on mind. we both agree Im sure

If you knew nothing about the bible how could your knowing about God bring you to repentence if you saw your sin before Him? If it was fear of the Lord, how can you state that you knew nothing of wisdom when you just stated that you agree with proverb fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom?
There is no such thing as blind faith. We place our faith in something because we have been persuaded that IT IS truth or at the very least OF it's truth. To say you placed faith in something without any knowledge is a misunderstanding about faith and what it is. Faith is an action based upon something you claim to believe is true. It is either a noun (Jesus, or our beliefs as a whole) or a verb (action) but it isn't some nebulous thing we are trying to figure out how to work or use. .

I didnt mean nothing in the sense of nothing, hah, sorry. I knew Jesus (divinity also), God's infinite power, the gospel, and a few other things. What I meant was that it was preached previous and I never cracked the bible open to see it for myself nor cared. I saw my sin when I got into the Word on personal time and read it with no preconcieved notions of anything (not that that is the only way). I remember where I read randomly Genesis, Pslams, Proverbs, and Studied the Gospels most of all. I didnt know what wisdom was even if I was being wise in my decisions. I didnt know what repentance meant really, but I repented because I desired to do so above all else and for eternity, not just as a test, and I believe that was God. Im honestly not sure the order of things, but it all started with the desire to search deeper and know after going to church for the first time in 6 years. I definetly agree on blind faith, or else I would have to say that someone who never heard of Jesus can be saved by looking into creation. Sorry for the horrible english that I have tried to warn you of. I have stuff on my mind that makes sense, but it comes out wrong... what i should have said was that based on the scripture reading and seeing the surface I was strengthened to desire to do all of what I read even though I didnt understand much of it. I didnt think I understood much, but I feeling blind and confessing it did a lot of what was right by God's strength that I dont do knowing much more about stuff now... It drives me nuts...

A decision is never random. We either believe something or we don't. Scripture states we don't because we choose something over God, or we do because we accept what God says. Some people are not yet at the point God wishes to move upon them, and others have rejected God already. It is not for us to say one way or another but to pray for them all to hear and come the knowledge of truth. God will determine when and where and why not..

I agree

God does not guide us through faith. We obey in faith, God guides us through His Spirit and His word. I would say a study that change not only my life but the dynamic of my prayer life was doing a concise word study on the word faith, especially Hebrews 11:1 As I said faith isn't some nebulous thing we are trying to understand. It is an action resulting from our belief in a truth or it is speaking of the truth itself (Jesus, or our faith/beliefs on the whole)..

Thats weird, I began to study and understand this today as I was reading some book that caused me to want to do so.. Can you give me any good pointers or links to good truth on Faith that were helpful to you?

Well I totally agree God chooses to outpoor power through His Spirit through the word which produces faith.

However, I don't agree that few see things the way Proverbs 1 declares but that all men see it (Romans 1:18-32; 2; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Eze 33:4-19) and as one OT saint declared "choose you this day whom you will serve", as with a NT saint who said 'when you hear the Lord do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation". Thus all men will know, but not all will believe what God said is true.

I have no problem telling people to choose God, to believe or to make any godly decisions without bringing up God's sovereignty. On the other hand, I see a completely sovereign God in some mysterious way orchestrating all of this, while at the same time paitently awaiting our choices and being longsuffering, loving, angry, and so forth all at the same time in some uncomprehenable way. I guess i am learning to be careful while using logic, which is good, when trying to explain certain things in scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

It was considered and I believe unscriptural because the point of the whole thing is that you are saved first and united with Christ while still in your trespasses and sins, unbelieving and unrepentant.

Please explain the following Scripture:

Ephesians 2:4-7

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[Allan]

Please explain the following Scripture:

Ephesians 2:4-7

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

There is nothing difficult about this passage.
While we were dead in our sins, 'HE' made us alive (in unity with Christ). By grace you are saved through faith When he is describing the making alive part (salvation) in this specific text he is stating that it is God who makes us alive. No one disputes this. But he expounds this aspect a little later by revealing that gracious savlation is through faith. Thus being made alive (regenerate/born again) is 'by faith'. It is vehicle through which God uses to unify us with and to Himself. These things do not precede faith as all that scripture declares are the various aspects of regeneration (specifically justification and positional sanctification) are only obtained 'by/through faith'.

However the portion you highlighted uses the word "and" or "in addition to this". To what; to being saved. We are not only freed from the bondage of sin, it's penalty and guilt but that we have 'all' (and not some special group within the group) been raised up (exhalted) and made to be apart of His family. This part is important to understand because we only can share in the seats of heavenly places - with Christ - if we are included in His family. This isn't dealing with regeneration here but the glorious grace and mercy of our God toward us in adopting us as His own and thus gave to us so much MORE than could ever hope to deserve, earn, or ever dream could be possible.

 

[OldRegular]

There is nothing difficult about this passage.
While we were dead in our sins, 'HE' made us alive (in unity with Christ). By grace you are saved through faith When he is describing the making alive part (salvation) in this specific text he is stating that it is God who makes us alive. No one disputes this. But he expounds this aspect a little later by revealing that gracious savlation is through faith. Thus being made alive (regenerate/born again) is 'by faith'. It is vehicle through which God uses to unify us with and to Himself. These things do not precede faith as all that scripture declares are the various aspects of regeneration (specifically justification and positional sanctification) are only obtained 'by/through faith'.

However the portion you highlighted uses the word "and" or "in addition to this". To what; to being saved. We are not only freed from the bondage of sin, it's penalty and guilt but that we have 'all' (and not some special group within the group) been raised up (exhalted) and made to be apart of His family. This part is important to understand because we only can share in the seats of heavenly places - with Christ - if we are included in His family. This isn't dealing with regeneration here but the glorious grace and mercy of our God toward us in adopting us as His own and thus gave to us so much MORE than could ever hope to deserve, earn, or ever dream could be possible.

Your first statement is correct! Otherwise your eisegesis trumps exegesis every time!:thumbsup:

Please note that faith is not mentioned in the above passage. Verse 5 simply states: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved].

 

[Allan]

double posting

 

[Allan]

Your first statement is correct! Otherwise your eisegesis trumps exegesis every time!:thumbsup:

Please note that faith is not mentioned in the above passage. Verse 5 simply states: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved].

Well, context declares otherwise without question. Your proof-texting only certain snippets of scripture without taking the whole of rest of his discussion. We know this because the rest of the passages clarify what he is saying regarding salvation by grace - that it is through/by faith

You will never have salvation apart from faith, never... period.

And what you highlight does not in any shape, form or fashion disagree with what I am saying but it does yours when you understand what regeneration is and when it happens. Yes, God has made us alive while we were in our tresspasses and sins. This is salvation. This is the grace of God, and that salvation according to the apostle just a little further down states in uncertain terms that we are saved by grace 'through faith'. Not we are saved and then faith is imparted, that is completely contextually wrong.

Also - Can you possibly post without adding all you clever ad-homs and condesending remarks, it would be quite a blessing every once in a while.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, context declares otherwise without question. Your proof-texting only certain snippets of scripture without taking the whole of rest of his discussion. We know this because the rest of the passages clarify what he is saying regarding salvation by grace - that it is through/by faith

You will never have salvation apart from faith, never... period.

And what you highlight does not in any shape, form or fashion disagree with what I am saying but it does yours when you understand what regeneration is and when it happens. Yes, God has made us alive while we were in our tresspasses and sins. This is salvation. This is the grace of God, and that salvation according to the apostle just a little further down states in uncertain terms that we are saved by grace 'through faith'. Not we are saved and then faith is imparted, that is completely contextually wrong.

Also - Can you possibly post without adding all you clever ad-homs and condesending remarks, it would be quite a blessing every once in a while.

How can a man who is spiritually dead have faith? He can't as Paul shows in the following Scripture

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the man who is spiritually dead and receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

However, once a man is raised from spiritual death; that is regenerated, reborn, born from above, born again, he is a new creation in Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

He is now able to receive the gift of faith.

Incidentally you are a poor one to remark about clever ad-homs and condesending remarks.

 

[Allan]

How can a man who is spiritually dead have faith? He can't as Paul shows in the following Scripture

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I find no where in that 'following passage' that a person spiritually dead can not have faith. The passage you cite simiply states that no man can come to know any spiritual truth on his own, nothing more and nothing less. This is why God reveals His spiritual truths to them. Three of these spiritual truths according to scritpure is 1) sin; 2) righteousness; 3) judgment to come.

However, once a man is raised from spiritual death; that is regenerated, reborn, born from above, born again, he is a new creation in Jesus Christ.

Maybe according to the definitions of your theology but not according to what scripture plainly lays out. Regeneration is salvation and those things which describe that regeneration (justification and sanctification) all transpire 'by faith', just as salvation does.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is salvation not some advent to it. Read the surrounding passages, this is a believer not someone who is about to believe. This person has no more sin and therefore are niether guilty of it nor condemned for it and as such according to scripture they have been justified and positionally sanctified. We see this in the very words "old things have passed away (they are no more) .. all things have become new (made clean and unblemished).

He is now able to receive the gift of faith.
That is one opinion.

Incidentally you are a poor one to remark about clever ad-homs and condesending remarks.

You just can help yourself can you? :tear:

 

[EdSutton]

Allan, I doubt it but you may be interested in John Gill's exegesis of Ephesians 2:4-8 unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.
...

Are the multiple shots you have directed at Allan really called for? There were seven posts that I counted with such.

I may (and often do) disagree with OldRegular and/or Allan, but that doesn't mean one has to take personal shots, even in absentia.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

I would also suggest this also questions my salvation, or any other, should one not agree with your position.

And since I do not agree that only one of the four groups were saved in this passage in question, I am one who definitely "is offended".

I'll add that I highly respect the man, and generally recommend the works of John Gill, for a lot of things, not the least bit of which is that he is the only individual, in history, to write commentary on every verse of Scripture. However, there is still no "book of Gill" anywhere in my Bible, anymore than there is a "Book of Scofield" or a "Book of (Fill in the name with anyone who is not a Biblical writer!)" to be found there.

Neither is the 'Statement of Faith' which you quoted binding on any Baptist (And I'm virtually certain it is not binding on any "Southern Baptist" to my knowledge!) anywhere that I'm aware of.

Ed

 

[Allan]

I agree if what you are saying is that faith comes by hearing and understanding the Word, and not by general revelation.

Yep. General revelation is not enough to bring them to salvation however it is suffient enough according to scripture that their denial of it will cause God to turn them over to their own way. Notice however that Rom 1 God revealed all those spiritual truths to them and they (knowing those truths) rejected it for their own views, but most specifically notice that it states three times that at their rejection of His truths "God gave them over". In order for God to give something over or to allow it do as it pleases means that God was dealing with them or better (for illistrative purposes) that God had a hold of then during that time, thus it can only be understood that He relinquishes (let go / give them over) them to their choice. But the passages are explict that these people 'know' the truth but trade it for a lie. A better way of putting this is .. If God reveals something, and He is perfect and everything He does is perfect, could that person to whom God revealed truth to - not understand what God revealed to him/her. Answer - no. When God reveals, He has made known what was not known previously. Thus the term 'know or known' is implict of knowledge and thus understanding.

Im not sure. I didnt really mean it like God isnt always working and aware of all creation, but for salvation alone it seems. Like I said I will accept the fact that I dont understand this fully, so I may be wrong

No, problem. Let us just say there are two views here :thumbs:

If I went to another country and did something against the rules I wasnt aware and they took me to prison and gave me a judgment, I still broke the law and deserve justice whether I knew or not. Im not saying we dont make choices, but we make foolish choices blindly a lot based on our sinful desires. maybe I misunderstood your point?

This argument is often used but it never messures up when placed in conjuction with what really transpires in these events. Theoretically, it is potentially probable IF there was no mercy or grace in that system of justice. But in reality if a judge is just and upright (or even somewhat so) he takes all things into account (being from another country, culture, laws from one place to the next, ect..). Also, in scripture, you only know sin when God the Holy Spirit reveals it to you and it is at that point that you become accountable for your sins. Jesus declares this when he states to the pharisees If you were blind you would have no sin, but since you say that you can see then your sins remain.

Maybe you can break down one of these to show me where your line of thought is?

Just read them. They all show God dealing with those people who reject Him. They all show that they knew and thus understood the truths presented to them but rejected them. They show God leaving them to their chosen end ONLY after their rejected His dealing with them.

Yes, but let me ask you a question based on some responses above. Do you think the Holy Spirit is always at work on everyone? if not then He is not always working like I was thinking, correct? So then if He is always at work then we must always be enabled to do godly things or in the unbelievers shoes, believe.

This I answered previously above

no I didnt mean it to that extreme, but simply to be careful and let the Word of God remain higher than feelings, with other religions on mind. we both agree Im sure

You got that right :laugh:

Sorry for the horrible english that I have tried to warn you of. I have stuff on my mind that makes sense, but it comes out wrong...

Don't worry about it. I understand what you are saying and if I don't I ask you to explain. I'm no different than you in this

what i should have said was that based on the scripture reading and seeing the surface I was strengthened to desire to do all of what I read even though I didnt understand much of it. I didnt think I understood much, but I feeling blind and confessing it did a lot of what was right by God's strength that I dont do knowing much more about stuff now... It drives me nuts...

:laugh: I agree. Welcome to the brotherhood of the saints.

Thats weird, I began to study and understand this today as I was reading some book that caused me to want to do so.. Can you give me any good pointers or links to good truth on Faith that were helpful to you?

Honestly only I have my own studies that I did.
I haven't read any works on it till after my studies. I had asked many people what about it but got such ho-hum or vague answers that it disturbed me concerning this invaluable portion of our christian life and walk that I could not just flippantly set it aside. But I will tell you that it is a study that both richly bless you and increase your understanding and prayer life.

I have no problem telling people to choose God, to believe or to make any godly decisions without bringing up God's sovereignty. On the other hand, I see a completely sovereign God in some mysterious way orchestrating all of this, while at the same time paitently awaiting our choices and being longsuffering, loving, angry, and so forth all at the same time in some uncomprehenable way. I guess i am learning to be careful while using logic, which is good, when trying to explain certain things in scripture.

Then you are becoming wise quickly :thumbs: - By the way.. I don't really disagree with anything you wrote above.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Im really sorry to keep bringing up something that has been beaten dead with a stick, but I am trying to figure this Calvinist understanding of regeneration. I dont mind a non-cal stating some opinions as long as we can discuss peacfully ...

So here is where Im at...

Romans 8:28-30

God has a given process of salvation

foreknowledge, then predestination, then His call, then justification, then glorification....

So, God's foreknowledge is not just His act of knowing about the person, but literally giving Himself to them... I understand opposing views see this point differently

Predestination is simply a secret process by which He appoints destinies to creation according to His purpose and will for them and is the complete act of grace. it is an unseen mystery Deut. 29:29

His call is the act by which at some point in time according to His will He opens the eyes of the blind sinner to see and understand with their hearts, which seems to begin the process of repentance/conversion which is a change of heart,mind,direction,will, and attitude. This repentance is a granted act which will endure the lifetime of the sinner. This is probably where fear, love of God over self, hate of sin, desire, thirst for righteousness, and honest true prayer fit in. Im guessing this is regeneration.

Justification- is through faith which somewhere is produced in the act of God's call to repentance as the sinner is most likely humbled (broken, helpless) as they see their life of previous sin/continual rebellion and offense to God and the reality of it (the mirror of the word). Justification is that actual act of saving faith which transfers the spiritual healing of the soul through the transfer of atonement for sin. This atonement is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus traded for our sinful life, wrath deserved, and spiritual death and seperation

Salvation, repentance, and faith are not a one time act. Salvation is the beginning of a lifelong process by which repentance and faith are simultaneous acts that start at the beginning of salvation and last the lifetime of a Christian.

sanctification- the process throughout life where the Christian experiences growth in wisdom, knowledge, and grows closer to God.

Glorification- Is the final act in the finishing of salvation when God makes one complete for the heavenly kingdom, which is after death.


Is regeneration the same as recieving the Holy Spirit and being born again? if so how does it fit into the process? When I say process I realize we cannot necesarily put order to these events that seem to get pretty in depth.

Sorry I didnt use scripture but i can if needed, Im sure most have all of the offending and defending ones on hand anyways.

The call/regeneration seem to describe what Jesus is saying in the beattitudes, Rev. 22:17, and Isaiah 55:1.

-Zach

I believe regeneration equals being "born again". I don't believe regeneration/born again equals the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit.

One of the works of Holy Spirit is regeneration/causing to be born again. The end result of this work will be salvation that is appropriated by faith. At that time, Holy Spirit indwells the believer as the pledge promise of God that all that He has said is true.

peace to youraying:

If you accept the normal definition of regeneration then Calvinist view of regeneration is incorrect. If you take their definition then of course it fits their model of theology.

The new birth, born from above etc is regeneration.

 

[OldRegular]

I would also suggest this also questions my salvation, or any other, should one not agree with your position.

And since I do not agree that only one of the four groups were saved in this passage in question, I am one who definitely "is offended".

Then tell me which of the four are you?

Neither is the 'Statement of Faith' which you quoted binding on any Baptist (And I'm virtually certain it is not binding on any "Southern Baptist" to my knowledge!) anywhere that I'm aware of.

Ed

I have never said the 'Statement of Faith' is binding on anyone. I said the Abstract of Principles of the Southern Seminary was binding on the faculty!

Who put the burr under your saddle? :laugh:Get your facts straight!:laugh: