Salvation

[Gina B]

Prove it? It's what the Bible says. I've already given my reasons for thinking so. As far as proving that yes, you actually are saved if you do this, I can't prove it any other way but to tell you why I believe so. And I believe so because I believe in Jesus and in the Bible and the Bible said so and Jesus convicted me of it. Faith!
It was Bart I addressed when I said I'd be happy to answer any questions he had asked me and felt I didn't respond to, but I'll be happy to respond to yours too.
Ok. God's part in salvation. From the beginning, he gave us freedom to choose to sin or obey. After we chose to sin, he provided a way for us to be able to continue to be in our lives. Good cannot dwell with evil. He set up the priesthood, offerings, sacrices, and such as a way for us to go to him, since because of our sin we could no longer go to him ourselves. When I say ourselves, I mean mankind, not us today, (just so it doesn't get mistaken that I'm speaking of some kind of re-incarnation theory-things get confused around here easily). Then He sent us His Son. We go to God for salvation through Jesus. Jesus is the intercessor.
That's what I believe.
Now for your next question that you haven't asked yet, but I see coming. The trinity.
I think of God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit as three separate parts that make up the God-head. Not three Gods, but one. Just as we are three separate beings in one. Our bodies, our thoughts, and our spirit, or soul. It's hard to explain how I understand this, and I'm sure many people describe it different ways, but that's how I see it. People have a habit of thinking these three are not separate, but they are. Yet they all work with each other. In a saved person, the spirit is quickened, and has much more influence over the thoughts than in an unsaved person. Where before you were dead, now you are alive in Christ.
Ok, I'm going way off here and I promised myself I wouldn't do it. Bart, go ahead and continue with your questions. Trevor, I tried to give you my best answer. What's your take on God's involvement in our salvation?
Gina

 

[TJAcorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Prove it? It's what the Bible says. I've already given my reasons for thinking so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe that you have proven that men are saved in the same way in the old testament as the new, you have simply givin me your opinion. Scripture used in context proves.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As far as proving that yes, you actually are saved if you do this, I can't prove it any other way but to tell you why I believe so. And I believe so because I believe in Jesus and in the Bible and the Bible said so and Jesus convicted me of it. Faith!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but I also can tell you why I believe something and say that the Bible says so and that Jesus convicted me of it and yet still be in disagreement with you and still we would have proven nothing other than that we each have our own opinions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ok. God's part in salvation. From the beginning, he gave us freedom to choose to sin or obey. After we chose to sin, he provided a way for us to be able to continue to be in our lives. Good cannot dwell with evil. He set up the priesthood, offerings, sacrices, and such as a way for us to go to him, since because of our sin we could no longer go to him ourselves. When I say ourselves, I mean mankind, not us today.... Then He sent us His Son. We go to God for salvation through Jesus. Jesus is the intercessor.
That's what I believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, so you are saying that God gives everyone freedom either to sin or obey but everyone chooses to sin so God provided a way for man to come to Him? did I understand you right? Really you are saying then that since everyone chooses to sin it doesn't matter that God gave them a choice to obey Him because in the long run they are going to sin anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now for your next question that you haven't asked yet, but I see coming. The trinity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I ask about the trinity? I had no intentions to. I don't see how it directly relates to the discussion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Trevor, I tried to give you my best answer. What's your take on God's involvement in our salvation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for asking! now I'm not going to take time to prove my belief with scripture right now but I am more than willing to.

I believe that God is the ONLY part of our salvation. We simple respond to His irresistable calling by repenting, confessing, getting baptized, etc. Those things are a natural result of God making alive our spirit causing us to understand spiritual things.

So, what must we do to be saved? it is not OUR believing or repenting or being baptized but it is God CAUSING us to believe and repent that saves us. To be baptized is a natural desire givin by God that should accompany salvation, but not necessarily at the same time as salvation.

Trevor

[ April 28, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

 

[bart]

I know this will sound like a little kid but...it does too matter! bart is not questioning the idea that you must be saved by faith. bart agrees with you concerning HOW the theif got saved (correct me if I'm wrong, bart). The theif was saved in the same way Abraham was saved. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" - Gal 3:6. But Abraham lived under the old covenant (i.e. old testament doctrines for the time before Christ died) as did the Theif. The question therfore is not how the theif was saved but is man's part in salvation different under the new covenant?
Your argument concerning the theif would be very powerful if he died under the new covenant but he didn't.


THANKS TREVOR, I AGREE WITH THE ABOVE 100%

BART

 

[bart]

GINA SAYS:I think of God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit as three separate parts that make up the God-head. Not three Gods, but one.

GINA, I AGREE TOTALLY,

BART

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; So, what must we do to be saved? it is not OUR believing or repenting or being baptized but it is God CAUSING us to believe and repent that saves us. &gt;

The word *predestination* would have eliminated many words in these posts. But (maybe you expected this ensuing question), if persons are saved only because God *caused* them to be saved, does God *cause* others to be lost-- and damned? If that is the case, evangelism is useless becaue God is going to cause all to be saved who will be saved regardless of it. If not the case, then God's will to "cause" someone to be saved is subject to our will to compel them to choose God-- and ultimately that *works* resulted in salvation.

 

[try hard]

Clearing something up:

The Bible says that God knows those who will come to Him and it is predestined.

Here's an example of how I look at it:

A mother sets Moose Tracks Ice cream out on the table and Cole slaw on the table for her little five year old son. She has given him a choice but she already knows which one he will pick. It's destiny, the kid will obviously pick the ice cream.

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; The Bible says that God knows those who will come to Him and it is predestined. &gt;

Is God the one who did the 'predestining' or does he just know it? And did he therefore predestine a much greater number to be tortured forever?

&lt; A mother sets Moose Tracks Ice cream out on the table and Cole slaw on the table for her little five year old son. She has given him a choice but she already knows which one he will pick. It's destiny, the kid will obviously pick the ice cream. &gt;

That's a laugher! If it illustrates anything, that would be that the mother is destining the son to do the wrong thing, as the vast majority who enter the gate to destruction (Matthew 7:13)...like most will choose immediate pleasure [ice cream] over what is good for them [Cole slaw]. Is that your point? Does God destine the vast majority of people to be forever damned?

 

[try hard]

That's a laugher! If it illustrates anything, that would be that the mother is destining the son to do the wrong thing, as the vast majority who enter the gate to destruction
(Matthew 7:13)...like most will choose immediate pleasure [ice cream] over what good for them [Cole slaw]. Is that your point? Does God destine the vast majority of people to be forever damned?


I guess you could make plenty of assumptions about what I just wrote. Hopefully this clears this up.

God is not willing that any should perish, so
He sent Jesus His Only Begotton Son to die on the cross for our sins. God gives us a choice, Receive HIS GIFT or Reject the gift of salvation. God is Sovereign. He gives people a choice and he knows which ones will receive HIM. It is the Human sin that sends someone to Hell. "For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance." It is not God's fault that people are going to Hell, it is Man's sin. It is our responsibility to reach the lost.

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; It is not God's fault that people are going to Hell, it is Man's sin. It is our responsibility to reach the lost &gt;

You seem to be a more-or-less typical parrot from Evangelism Training, 'Experiencing God,' perhaps Bible college or seminary. But you evade the question here... Did God predestine the vast majority of people to be forever damned?

I do not think it would be right, though, for me to ask that question without coming forward with my own views. The best way I know to describe my understanding is 'open-ended predestination.' There definitely are some predestined to become conformed to the image of the Son of God (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5), but it is not necessarily true that all who will be saved are included within these passages.

 

[Don]

Bart, no one may have told you about proper etiquette when posting on message boards or sending e-mails.

All caps is equivalent to shouting. How about turning the caps lock off, and settling down a tad?

As for my "running to John 3:16," I reiterate the question I gave before: When did I mention John 3:16? You either have me confused with someone else, or you're inserting words into my mouth.

And Bart, you can twist an analogy around all you want, but let's face it: You cannot find in the Bible where it says those who are not baptized will not see the kingdom of God. Thus, being baptized is NOT equivalent to breathing....

 

[bart]

DON,

don says)All caps is equivalent to shouting. How about turning the caps lock off, and settling down a tad?

if you would like for me to turn the caps lock off, i will be glad to, it is not that i am angry or irritated, but sincere. but think about the capital letters however you wish.

don says)As for my "running to John 3:16," I reiterate the question I gave before: When did I mention John 3:16? You either have me confused with someone else, or you're inserting words into my mouth..........

i might have you confused with someone else, and im sorry again, but the point was that you are going to a scripture on "belief" and quitting there.

don says)And Bart, you can twist an analogy around all you want, but let's face it: You cannot find in the Bible where it says those who are not baptized will not see the kingdom of God. Thus, being baptized is NOT equivalent to breathing....

"i cannot find in the bible where it says those who are not baptized will not see the kingdom of God".........is that what it is going to take for you to believe that baptism is essential?........well don, then i am sorry, you are correct, i cant find a scripture that says exactly what you have stipulated for the Lord to put down..................but how about this. Acts 22:16 says "arise and be baptized and WASH away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"..............now don, where in all of the bible does it say "believe and wash away thy sins"??????????just give me one scripture.............but you see the Lord does not have to express his plan like i want him to, or anybody else wants him to. will you take the position that the only way the Lord would express a command is by asking me or you????????sounds like those jews who crucified the savior, "if you are Jesus, then come down from the cross...save yourself"......in other words the jews are saying "Jesus, you do it like we say"..............don says "Lord, you put the verses down like i say".......says now, Lord "you can put all the scriptures down that says baptism saves (I pet 3:21), arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins (acts 22:16), repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (acts 2:38),he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (mark 16:16), BUT unless you put a scripture in there that says "those who are not baptized will not see the kingdom of God" i am not going to accept it.
don, where do you get this rule?????????

alright, you have said that i can "twist" an analogy around anyway i want to, and yes i agree, but if i can do it then so can mr cassidy, so therefore mr cassidy's analogy is based on the fact that one of the conditions listed had absolutely nothing to do with arriving at your destination.....so therefore, (in mr cassidy's analogy) baptism is not equal to sitting down!

 

[try hard]

Rockfort,
Are there verses saying that God has predestined people to be damned? I don't think so?!!!

I do know this though:"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

There are no verse(s) saying He has predetermined people to go to Hell, But there are verses saying that He is not willing that they go. Why would he predestine someone to go to Hell if He is not
willing?
that they go.

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; Are there verses saying that God has predestined people to be damned? I don't think so?!!! &gt;

You previously made the statement, "The Bible says that God knows those who will come to Him and it is predestined." So, which of these possibilities is true?...

1) God has predestined a small number of the beings He created in his own image to live with him forever, and he created a much greater number of the same type of beings to be forever tormented.

2) God has predestined *some* to be saved and to live with him forever, and these could not reject the gospel if they wanted to; yet others he did not predestine may still live with him forever because of the efforts of those who present the gospel.

3) Predestination is a misnomer; God creates certain types of minds, environments, and situations which influence a person's decision, and in this way God knows who will come to him and who will not. The majority being damned is a consequence that God-- for reaons not known to us-- could have avoided, but he did not.

4) Predestination is a gross misperception of the character of a loving God.

 

[SPAM]

Bart, as I have noticed about this forum, on occasion, people get involved in a discussion and before long, the original question gives way to other topics. I have been guilty myself of getting on the soapbox.

If the question is what is necessary for salvation, may I ask you a question? What are you waiting for? Are you going to tell me that what you've read so far, not just on this forum, but in the bible you've been referencing, hasn't shown you what's necessary to be saved? If so, may I suggest you get off this forum, read the word of God until you find the answer and quit confusing yourself with useless rhetoric.
If what you've read on this forum doesn't get you closer to salvation, why stay?

With some of the answers you've given, you are quite aware of what's necessary. You are either yanking some chains here, or you aren't too "sincere" about your salvation. I will tell you this, however, since the first day you posted, my church has been praying for your salvation.

Let me be "sincere" with you for a moment, everyone on this panel wants to see you get saved. But, you have to make the decision.

 

[TJAcorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SPAM:
Let me be "sincere" with you for a moment, everyone on this panel wants to see you get saved. But, you have to make the decision.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't think this discussion is about bart's salavation. Notice his own words, "now i say this in all kindness, i do not think it makes any difference whether or not i have been saved or not, i believe that i am entitled to the truth no matter what my condition is. i know this, and this is nothing against gina, (please do not take offense) ".

Whether or not bart is saved or not is between him and God! he's looking for the truth and that is a very noble goal indeed! at least he has the guts to ask the hard questions and question the answers! I don't believe we have given him good enough answers to his questions and why can't we?? do we really have the truth or not?

So let's get in the fine details of our salvation and find out the truth of what God teaches and let's do it with an open mind!

Trevor

 

[Psalm145 3]

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The whole point of Romans 4 is that Abraham, David, and all other Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith, not by keeping the law. The thief on the cross was saved the same way, by grace.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Bart, you should stop trying to figure everything out and simply trust Jesus Christ alone to save you. You have to have chil-like faith. You cannot understand the Bible properly until you are born-again because satan is blinding your heart(1Cor. 2:14; 2Cor. 4:4).

Matthew 18:2,3 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Ye Must Be Born Again

 

[bart]

thanks trevor, i do appreciate that.

i have a reply to make to the "psalm 145 3", but i'll have to do it later tonight.

thanks again trevor.

bart

 

[Gina B]

How do Baptists get saved? Trevor, that was exactly the question. Guess it may have changed.........if so can we have a rephrase so we are all clear on exactly what is needed?
Gina

 

[Danny]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bart:

"believe on the lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".........how did repentance get into this scripture?????????????????????[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Acts 20:21 &gt; "testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

The repentance required for salvation is a "turning toward God", not a "turning away from sin." The Holy Spirit helps you with that after salvation. To say repentance from sin is a requirement for salvation is to say we must first clean up our lives, so we will be worthy of God's grace. We can never be worthy. Titus 3:5 &gt; ...not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His MERCY He saved us..."

Danny


[ May 01, 2001: Message edited by: Danny ]

 

[bart]

danny,

thanks for the reply, lets get right down to it...........So far, it has been established that repentance is necessary for salvation. now my question read like this: "in dealing with acts 16:31, ....believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..... how did repentance get into this scripture?"

on your reply, you have my question quoted above like you were going to answer it. i am just as unclear about where you stand on my question after i have read what you have said as i was before. (please do not take this personally)(for the 6th or 7th time, i say this in all kindness)..........now you might be different, but your doctrine preaches that repentance is necessary, but it also preaches that belief is necessary, yet repentance and belief are not in the same verse, HOW DID YOU GET REPENTANCE INTO ACTS 16:31???????????

please be real clear with your answer.

BART