Salvation

[Justified Saint]

No, what that means is that he strays from and doesn't fully conform to the beliefs of Catholic doctrine, I think Singer would agree with that 100%.

 

[Singer]

You're right J.S.; I don't conform to the doctrines of the Catholic Church or the
Mormon, JW or Moonie churhes either, Islam or the 2x2 sect I grew up in.

But, you and I have in common

A need to attend to our eternal salvation.
A desire to serve God that was put in our hearts by God Himself
Faith in an eternal God and the gospel story as provided in the bible.
And a requirement to become Born Again and believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus rose from the dead.

Are we brothers so far ?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:

DHK - I really like your name, so I am going to help you out on this one. Baptism is a work of GRACE not a work of the LAW or OUR work. Look at v 10, God has prepared and set aside works for us so that we may do them. Eph 2:8-9 is talking about OUR works, works that let us BOAST contrasting them with v 10 about the works of GOD, FAITH, and GRACE. It's really a simple concept.

It is simple, very simple. That is what baffles me--that you cannot grasp such a basic and simple concept.
You say:

Baptism is a work of grace.

Now, how is that even possible. What is grace? Grace is free unmerited favor. It is a free gift undeservedly received from God. Baptism is not a gift from God. I have never seen God baptize anyone. He is neither the baptized nor the baptizer. When you get baptized it is done by a priest (not God). That makes it a work of man. God has no part in it. You may be doing it in obedience to God, but it is not God doing it; it is man doing it--it is a work of man, not of God. Therefore it is not of grace but of works.

Rom.11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If it is by grace; it is not of works (baptism). Otherwise grace is no more grace. Grace and works are mutually exclusive. Baptism is not of grace, but of works
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
The simple is too simple for some:


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

God Bless

Yes, how true!
It is God that works in me. That is why it is grace. It is God that does the work. It is not me; it is God. Salvation is all of God. I have done nothing to merit salvation. It is that provides salvation, God that gives salvation, God that works salvation, God that does it all.
I only receive it by faith.
Works are an outcome of my salvation that I have received by faith alone.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

Originally posted by Kathryn:

The simple is too simple for some:

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

God Bless
----------------------------

Yes, how true!
It is God that works in me. That is why it is grace. It is God that does the work. It is not me; it is God. Salvation is all of God. I have done nothing to merit salvation. It is that provides salvation, God that gives salvation, God that works salvation, God that does it all.
I only receive it by faith.
Works are an outcome of my salvation that I have received by faith alone.
DHK

In context it is even more complete and beautiful:

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling ; for it is God who is at work in you , both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

The gospel is all about salvation by Grace even if we do something like obey God….because it is God who is at work when a Christian does His will. There is no other salvation but by Grace from the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross...He is the way, the truth, and the life. Obedience to Jesus Christ in baptism is God's work in us.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

.......it is a work of man, not of God. Therefore it is not
of grace but of works.(DHK)

Obedience to Jesus
Christ in baptism is God's work in us.(Kathryn)

Glad we got that one figured out !!!!!!!!!

So would confessing sins to a priest be God's work in us?
Or kneeling in adoration to a "Holy Father Pope" be God's work in us?
Or becoming a Catholic is God's work in us, but becoming a Protestant
would not?

[ July 14, 2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Wow.


I mean that's all I can say. The arrogance has left me speechless.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Ladies and gentlemen -

I, of all people, realize that these debates tempt us into low blows, goading and posturing. However, I am requesting that these techniques not be employed in the interest of fruitful discussion.

Deliberate use of goading techniques simply displays a hypocrisy relative to this discussion. With so much referencing to James 2, let us not forget James 3. Thanks.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[Singer]

The shoe hurts when you try to fit it on the other foot...doesn't it Adam.

 

[Brother Adam]

Care to expound?

Start with my post about two pages ago. Read through it to Clint's admonishment.

I've been playing "devil's advocate" for a while now, in hope that my Baptist (or even non-Catholic) brothers and sisters would be able to intellegently respond to the claims that salvation is not OSAS or Sole Fida. Instead, like MacArthur, it's been nothing but circular arguments, "scripture can't actually mean that because it's not what I believe" and other very hollow arguments. Worst of all, the flaming, misrepresentations, and bad attitudes have been a horrible witness.

For shame!

"How prone to doubt, how cautious are the wise!" ~Homer, Odyssey, 8th century BC

"The function of wisdom is discriminating between good and evil" ~Cicero, De officiis, 44BC

 

[Justified Saint]

DHK - Baptism is not a work of man. It is administered by a priest and the work of the Church making it the gift of God's grace. You have to read eph 2:10 as well, there are two types of works being contrasted here. OUR works and the works of grace that God has prepared for us so that we may live in them with OBEDIENCE, baptism is one such work.

Plenty of verses have already been posted showing how continued faith and obedience is how people are inheriting eternal life. Once again I'll ask since nobody has answered me yet. Why does the Bible warn us to keep the faith and not to throw it away and become disobedient if it is impossible to do so?

 

[Justified Saint]

Yeah Sing, it sounds like we are cool, I think.

 

[Yelsew]

I've been playing "devil's advocate" for a while now, in hope that my Baptist (or even non-Catholic) brothers and sisters would be able to intellegently respond to the claims that salvation is not OSAS or Sole Fida. Instead, like MacArthur, it's been nothing but circular arguments, "scripture can't actually mean that because it's not what I believe" and other very hollow arguments. Worst of all, the flaming, misrepresentations, and bad attitudes have been a horrible witness.

Well here's a thought for you Brother Adam. If a person comes to saving faith in God and LOSES NOT THAT FAITH for the rest of his natural life, is that person not once saved always saved (OSAS)? Therefore OSAS IS TRUE for that person, YES or NO? If OSAS is true for one, is not OSAS true? OR, does OSAS have to be true for ALL in order for OSAS to be true?

The parable of the sower clearly illustrates this principle. The enemies of OSAS do dwell on "the rocky soil", and "the weedy ground", where seeds sprout up and may even grow for a while only to die out or to be choked out when the heat comes and water is not available or when the weeds overrun the ground choking out the good seed. But there is also "the good ground" where the seed sprouts and continues to grow because the nutrients are present and there is proper amount of watering taking place and minimal weeds. Seeds in this good ground continue through all phases of the natural life of the plant, resulting in much production of more seed.

Devil's advocate or not, one must face the truth of OSAS in the same manner that one accepts "miracles" and the varied apparitions of the blessed virgin. OSAS is true if only one case of it happens. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

But define "bear fruit". Does it mean eternal life in heaven, or does it refer to soul winning ?

(Bear fruit = production of more seed)

 

[Justified Saint]

Ok Yeslew, the person loses salvation and now it's false.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Ok Yeslew, the person loses salvation and now it's false.

But is it false for all or only for the one who loses the faith?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
But define "bear fruit". Does it mean eternal life in heaven, or does it refer to soul winning ?

(Bear fruit = production of more seed)

Bearing fruit is making the seed that makes more like yourself.

It is fulfilling your purpose. In the case of wheat, the purpose of one stalk of wheat is to produce many seeds that when planted in good soil become stalks of wheat too. That is, perpetuation of kind or likeness. A stalk of wheat does not produce cherries.

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I've been playing "devil's advocate" for a while now, in hope that my Baptist (or even non-Catholic) brothers and sisters would be able to intellegently respond to the claims that salvation is not OSAS or Sole Fida. Instead, like MacArthur, it's been nothing but circular arguments, "scripture can't actually mean that because it's not what I believe" and other very hollow arguments. Worst of all, the flaming, misrepresentations, and bad attitudes have been a horrible witness.

Well here's a thought for you Brother Adam. If a person comes to saving faith in God and LOSES NOT THAT FAITH for the rest of his natural life, is that person not once saved always saved (OSAS)? Therefore OSAS IS TRUE for that person, YES or NO? If OSAS is true for one, is not OSAS true? OR, does OSAS have to be true for ALL in order for OSAS to be true?

The parable of the sower clearly illustrates this principle. The enemies of OSAS do dwell on "the rocky soil", and "the weedy ground", where seeds sprout up and may even grow for a while only to die out or to be choked out when the heat comes and water is not available or when the weeds overrun the ground choking out the good seed. But there is also "the good ground" where the seed sprouts and continues to grow because the nutrients are present and there is proper amount of watering taking place and minimal weeds. Seeds in this good ground continue through all phases of the natural life of the plant, resulting in much production of more seed.

Devil's advocate or not, one must face the truth of OSAS in the same manner that one accepts "miracles" and the varied apparitions of the blessed virgin. OSAS is true if only one case of it happens. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. </font>[/QUOTE]The principle of OSAS states that once a person gains there salvation, enters into the new covenant, they cannot, by any means of their own or others, lose their salvation. If a person can lose their inheritence in the Kingdom of God, than OSAS would prove false, even if a person entered the covenant and never left, as some did, OSAS still would not be true, because the possibility for them to leave the covenant existed. Right?

 

[Justified Saint]

If it's true for one is it true for all?

Just because one doesn't fall away, that doesn't mean that OSAS is true as Brother Adam said.

I will ask again. Why does scripture warn us not to fall away and lose faith if it is impossible to do so? You can't fall from a position if you weren't in a position to fall from, you can't lose something you never had.

 

[Yelsew]

The principle of OSAS states that once a person gains there salvation, enters into the new covenant, they cannot, by any means of their own or others, lose their salvation. If a person can lose their inheritence in the Kingdom of God, than OSAS would prove false, even if a person entered the covenant and never left, as some did, OSAS still would not be true, because the possibility for them to leave the covenant existed. Right?

So does the possibility of sin exist while one is in the covenant? The wage of sin is death! So if one who is in the covenant sins, the wage received would be death. That does not prove the covenant false, it simply proves that the one who is saved can sin. In the same manner one who is saved in accordance with their faith can truly lose salvation by failing to continue in faith. Thus we have the doctrine of perseverence. Those who persevere to the end shall be saved. Those who fall away will not be saved.

OSAS is true, 'perseverence' says so!

Take a team of people who all start out a project with the same goal in mind. However along the way one gets discouraged and fails to continue. Does that one get the reward of the goal or does that one lose all claim to the reward of the goal. It is only those who keep the "faith" and reach the goal that are entitled to share the reward.