Salvation

[Justified Saint]

No Yeslew, the doctrines of perseverance and OSAS are not the same, they are opposites actually. OSAS says that you will persevere that it is impossible not to persevere, thus since it is impossible it doesn't even matter and you are saved from the moment you believed and nothing can happen to change that. If you are using perseverance as the means to judge whether or not you were ever truly saved then that means you didn't know if you were saved when you first starting believing and therefore OSAS is wrong since the person knows from the first moment 100% that they will go to heaven not matter what.

You say they "will be saved", OSAS says they were already saved.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
No Yeslew, the doctrines of perseverance and OSAS are not the same, they are opposites actually. OSAS says that you will persevere that it is impossible not to persevere, thus since it is impossible it doesn't even matter and you are saved from the moment you believed and nothing can happen to change that. If you are using perseverance as the means to judge whether or not you were ever truly saved then that means you didn't know if you were saved when you first starting believing and therefore OSAS is wrong since the person knows from the first moment 100% that they will go to heaven not matter what.

You say they "will be saved", OSAS says they were already saved.

So you are saying that one who comes to saving faith, which immediately sanctifies him for salvation, can never be drawn away from that faith and thus lose salvation!

Then why the parable of the sower which clearly says that seeds of faith can sprout and grow in rocky soil or weedy soil then the growing faith can die out or be choked out by the cares of the world? Did the seed not germinate and a sprout and break through to the surface and grow for a while only to die for whatever reason? Was that not true faith? Was it not saving faith? A wheat seed produces only wheat! A faith seed produces only faith.

It seems you need to reconsider the truth.

 

[Justified Saint]

No Yeslew, I didn't say that. That is what OSAS says, I don't hold that view. OSAS is clearly not scriptural.

 

[Justified Saint]

You know Yeslew sounds a lot better than Yelsew in case you were wondering.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
No Yeslew, I didn't say that. That is what OSAS says, I don't hold that view. OSAS is clearly not scriptural.

Yes, OSAS is clearly scriptural. Salvation is a free gift from God to man who has faith in God. So long as man, any man, has faith in God, that man is sanctified unto salvation and nothing can take that one from the hand of God so long as that one continues to have faith in God.

Peter walked on the water so long as he had faith in Jesus who was approaching him. But the instant Peter's faith wavered, he was neck deep in the water. What did Jesus say? "OH ye of little faith". With faith Peter stayed dry, when faith departed Peter got wet. Peter doubted and his faith wavered. If you can live life without one single doubt, your faith may remain rock solid. But I know of no one who has been 100% successful in doing so. We all, being mere men, experience faith shaking events in our lives. Perseverence is what makes the difference. If we persevere in Faith till the end, we shall be saved. We are marked by, that is, 'sanctified' by our faith. But we can lose faith if we allow sin to remain unconfessed, for that unconfessed sin stifles the Holy Spirit in our life.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
You know Yeslew sounds a lot better than Yelsew in case you were wondering.

Perhaps, but when I try to log in using Yeslew, I am not permitted, so Yelsew is it, Sorry you don't like how sounds.

 

[Justified Saint]

The problem is that that isn't what once saved, always saved means. Once saved, always saved means it is impossible to fall from the faith and it is impossible not to live the Christian life. The moment one possesses faith they have plegded that they are now a new creature in God for eternity and they will never return to their old ways. That is it is impossible to return to one's old ways because they are a new creature and God won't let them do that. The person had nothing at all to do with getting saved in the first place so that means there is nothing that they can do to lose it either. Therefore the person doesn't need perseverance because it is already assumed they will have it because again it is impossible not to perserve in the faith, since they are new creatures in Christ they will do everything the Lord tells them to do. This is what OSAS means, its like saying once you have faith you will always have faith.

Perhaps, but when I try to log in using Yeslew, I am not permitted, so Yelsew is it, Sorry you don't like how sounds.

Well, woe to us then Yeslew.

 

[Kathryn]

We are saved by Grace: “ If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.” (2 Tim 2: 12-13)

" But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (Matt 10:33)

“They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed .” Titus 1:16
______________

How does a Christian lose this gift of salvation?

By denying Christ….by professing to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him. Christ has promised to deny that person…because he remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim 2:12-13) (Matt 10:33) (Titus 1:16)
______________

How does the Gospel teach us to endure to the end, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling for God is working within us?:

“And He was saying to them all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself , and take up his cross daily and follow Me ’.” (Luke 9:23)
______________

How does a Christian deny himself , and take up his cross daily?

Faith working through love. By God working within us. By living the Gospel. By doing His will and not our own. (Gal 5:6) (Phil 2:12-13) (Matt 7:21)

___________

Baptized Christians must respond to God’s unconditional love, grow in our relationship with God and others, live the Gospel in our daily lives, deny ourselves, take up our cross daily, commit to ongoing conversion…in short be like Christ in the world. (1Pet 1:15-16)

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him.” (2Tim 2:12)

God Bless

[ July 14, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[DHK]

The gift of God is eternal life, which God gives us when we are saved. (Rom.6:23; John 10:27-30; John 5:24).
Now I ask you: Define eternal life.
If God takes away eternal life, is it still eternal?
If you lose eternal life, is it still eternal?
If eternal life is lost in any way is not Christ, then a liar?
DHK

 

[Justified Saint]

DHK, we INHERIT eternal life, we don't have eternal life until we are in heaven. We can abuse and lose our INHERITANCE.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
DHK, we INHERIT eternal life, we don't have eternal life until we are in heaven. We can abuse and lose our INHERITANCE.

That is not what my Bible says. That is simply a perversion--Roman Catholic Theology.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
These verbs are in the present tense: "has everlasting or eternal life" and "is passed from death unto life." It is not simply an inheitance that I will receive some day. I have eternal life right now. It was a gift given to me when I trusted Christ as my Saviour. It will never be taken away from me. If it were taken away from, God would be a liar, and eternal would no longer be eternal, but only termporary. Answer the questions that I gave you.
DHK

 

[Carson Weber]

The gift of God is eternal life

The eternal life we are given is eternal not with regard to us but with regard to God. God's life is eternal; it has no beginning nor an end. Our participation in this life is a participation in God's own life, which is eternal. We can stop participating in eternal life if we so choose because the "eternality" does not refer to the life's relation to us, but it's relation to God himself, who is eternal.

DHK is right when he says that eternal life can't be taken away from us (Cf. Romans 8). However, we can reject this life through disinheritance. We can, like the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, leave the family and squander our inheritance, thus committing the type of deadly sin St. John describes in 1 John 5. But, if we repent and return to the Father, we will pass "from death to life" as the Prodigal Son did.

To say that one can be assured infallibly of one's final perseverence is unreasonable, for we all know individuals who were "assured" of their salvation at one point and now no longer profess Jesus Christ as Lord. If it can happen to "them", it can happen to "us".

[ July 14, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Stephen III]

DHK,

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In the scripture you quoted would you be so kind to explain your interpretation of what it means to "...believeth on Him that sent Me". Is it just a consent of the mind, and/or does this require words or an expression of beleif? Or does it require something other than these?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
The gift of God is eternal life

The eternal life we are given is eternal not with regard to us but with regard to God. God's life is eternal; it has no beginning nor an end. Our participation in this life is a participation in God's own life, which is eternal. We can stop participating in eternal life if we so choose because the "eternality" does not refer to the life's relation to us, but it's relation to God himself, who is eternal.

Not so. You are playing a game of semantics which puts God as a liar. God does not lie. He does what He says.

Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God was speaking in terms that man could understand, not that He could understand. Man can understand clearly that when God said to man the gift of God is eternal life, that God meant that to be just that.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Look how many times Christ had to repeat this concept to those who were slow at grasping or learning it such as some of my learned friends here.

My sheep refer to those that are saved. Here is what Christ says about them.
"They shall NEVER perish. Never means never? One could easily ask: What part of never do you not understand?

If you do not understand that, Christ goes on to say: I GIVE unto them ETERNAL LIFE.
1. He says that it is a gift. I GIVE. This is not a hard concept. It is a free gift. You do not have to do anything for this including being baptized. It is a "gift," entirely by the grace of God. What is the gift?
2. It is ETERNAL LIFE! What part of eternal do you not understand. Eternal means just that: eternal, going on forever and ever, from the point of salvation onward. Of course we know that it is not referring to having no beginning, for we all had a beginning. It refers to the point of the beginning of our salvation onward--forever throughout eternity. That is eternal life. It was a gift given to me at the time of salvation. I will never lose it.

Still don't understand. NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. They will not lose that salvation which I gave them. No man is able to take it away from them, not even the devil himself. He cannot pluci it out of my hand Jesus says. It is impossible.

Still not convinced.
MY FATHER WHICH GAVE THEM ME IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND DO MAN SHALL BE ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. The greatest impossiblility is stated here. No man can take away my salvation for it is secure in my Father's hands.

Still not convinced: One final statement by Christ, and that is the proclamation of His deity. I and my Father are one. We are one in essence. We are the same person. Rest assured: your salvation is secure with me.
DHK

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
The problem is that that isn't what once saved, always saved means. Once saved, always saved means it is impossible to fall from the faith and it is impossible not to live the Christian life. The moment one possesses faith they have plegded that they are now a new creature in God for eternity and they will never return to their old ways. That is it is impossible to return to one's old ways because they are a new creature and God won't let them do that. The person had nothing at all to do with getting saved in the first place so that means there is nothing that they can do to lose it either. Therefore the person doesn't need perseverance because it is already assumed they will have it because again it is impossible not to perserve in the faith, since they are new creatures in Christ they will do everything the Lord tells them to do. This is what OSAS means, its like saying once you have faith you will always have faith.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Perhaps, but when I try to log in using Yeslew, I am not permitted, so Yelsew is it, Sorry you don't like how sounds.

Well, woe to us then Yeslew. </font>[/QUOTE]Like I said earlier young saint in training, you have a lot to learn.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Stephen III:
DHK,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In the scripture you quoted would you be so kind to explain your interpretation of what it means to "...believeth on Him that sent Me". Is it just a consent of the mind, and/or does this require words or an expression of beleif? Or does it require something other than these? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course it is not just a mental consent. James made that clear when he said:
"You believe in God, you do well. The devils also believe and tremble."

Paul makes it clear when he says:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom.10:9,10)

The belief must come from the heart. It must be a belief unto righteousness, i.e., it will produce righteousness in the believers life. If the Holy Spirit truly resides within the believer, once he is saved, the Holy Spirit will begin a gradual change within that person. James says faith without works is dead. The meaning here is that faith in Christ is more than mental consent. It comes from the heart and will produce works in the believers life.

Eph.2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--These two verse speak of salvation, and how one is saved.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
--Verse 10 talks of the result of salvation. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. The believer is in Christ. God has created the believer for good works. They follow salvation. They are not a part of salvation.
DHK

 

[Justified Saint]

DHK - again you show how the osas position is weighted very heavily on a few verses while ignoring most of scripture.

"For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness ." Galatians 5:5

"so that we must be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7

"Blessed is the man who preserves in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." James 1:12

“Let what you heard in the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.” 1 John 2:24-25

"so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience , are inheriting the promises." Hebrews 6:12

Jesus gives eternal life to those who FOLLOW HIM, in other words the ones who walk as he walks and live as he lives shall have eternal life, the ones who are PROVEN.

Yelsew - I am just correcting your misunderstanding of what OSAS means, you don't hold the traditional view of OSAS. Surely realizing this, you resort to derisive comments about my youth, of course I would expect nothing more.

 

[Kathryn]

DHK:

The gift of God is eternal life, which God gives us when we are saved. (Rom.6:23; John 10:27-30; John 5:24).
Now I ask you: Define eternal life.
If God takes away eternal life, is it still eternal?
If you lose eternal life, is it still eternal?
If eternal life is lost in any way is not Christ, then a liar?
DHK

Justified Saint said:
DHK, we INHERIT eternal life, we don't have eternal life until we are in heaven. We can abuse and lose our INHERITANCE.

Justified Saint and Carson are correct. For us here on earth, we baptized Christians, or as St. Paul calls us “saints”, salvation by Grace is the life of God within us. If we “endure to the end” we have our full inheritance.. eternal life. (2 Tim 2: 12-13)

We must have ongoing conversion of heart. Faith working through love….. When we deny Christ within us through serious sin... He has promised He will deny us...we need conversion of heart. We need to be restored to His Grace and once more be a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

1 Peter 1:15
but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

1 Peter 1:16
because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

God Bless

P.S.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him.” (2Tim 2:12)

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
DHK - again you show how the osas position is weighted very heavily on a few verses while ignoring most of scripture.

To defend your position you, out of necessity must take Scripture out of its context.

"For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness." Galatians 5:5
"Through the Spirit." Only the believer has the Spirit, not the unsaved, thus this verse refers to the believer's walk with God. By faith, that is our walk of faith--for we walk by faith and not by sight--we await the hope of righteousness. Our ultimate Righteousness is Jesus Christ. This has nothing to do with the righteousness that we received at salvation. It speaking of Jesus Christ, Our Righterousness whom we await for. He is our hope.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"so that we must be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7
Take the whole context my friend.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You see what I mean by taking one verse out of context. Titus had just said, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." Now you take one of these verses out of its context and say that he saying the exact opposite. 2Peter calls that "wresting the Scripture to one's own destruction."
The believer is already justified by His grace. Titus has already made that clear in verse 5. We are not saved by works. He is restating what Paul has already stated in Romans 8, that after one is saved he becomes an heir of God, and a joint heir with Jesus Christ--one of the many benefits of salvation. We have eternal life. We are even heirs of Christ right now. The rest of what we inherit will be revealed to us in heaven. But we have eternal life right now. It has already been given to us. That is what salvation is.

"Blessed is the man who preserves in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." James 1:12
And your point is?? My point is that you have just taken another verse out of context. James is speaking of rewards in Heaven for the believer. The Bible speaks of different crowns (I believe there are five crowns that one can earn), and he mentions one of them here. The crown of life will be presented in heaven as a reward to the beleiver that has demonstrated their love for Christ through tribulation. This has nothing to do with salvation at all.

“Let what you heard in the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.” 1 John 2:24-25
Out of context again. Understand wny the First Epistle of Johh was written. One of the reasons was to give evidences to the believer how he could know that he was saved. A true believer has eternal life. There is no doubt about that. John makes that clear in chapter five. He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son has not life. If you have eternal life (1 John 2:24,25), then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. If you depart from them then it is obvious that you never had eternal life in the first place. There are many professions without true possessions. If you do not have the Son and the Father, you do not consequently have eternal life. The opposite holds true as well. The verse is speaking of the evidence of a true Christian life.

"so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience , are inheriting the promises." Hebrews 6:12
It is speaking of the Christian life again. The Christian life is one of continual patience in well doing. That doesn't mean we are saved that way. It means that we are rewared according to how we live. Every man is judged according to his works. Judged not in respect to salvation, but in respect to reward in heaven. For Paul makes it clear in Romans 8:1

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." How much condemnation? None! No condemnation! Cannot lose my salvation.

Jesus gives eternal life to those who FOLLOW HIM, in other words the ones who walk as he walks and live as he lives shall have eternal life, the ones who are PROVEN.
John 10:27--It is a fact of life. His sheep follow him. If you are not one of his sheep you won't follow him. That in no way says one will lose his salvation. Though there are many that are wolves in sheep's clothing--we are to be aware of them, and beware of them.
DHK

 

[Stephen III]

DHK says,

The belief must come from the heart. It must be a belief unto righteousness, i.e., it will produce righteousness in the believers life. If the Holy Spirit truly resides within the believer, once he is saved, the Holy Spirit will begin a gradual change within that person.

And if a person who firmly beleives he has been saved and even OSAS, and would for years show righteousness, only to later seriously falter. Then was this person not actually saved all along? Eventhough he thought he was.

Does the scripture about knowing them by their fruit apply? If so what's the time limit.
And then are the good works or whatever the "righteousness" produces really just a sign to the beleivers that this person is saved? Is that really what all the fuss is about, these proof-works?

While we all agree noone can work their way to salvation, and the RCC doesn't teach that we can, what then is the proper correlation between works and faith in regard to salvation? And if someone would answer these questions in regard to the following scripture:

Collosians 1:24
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church

How could anything be lacking in regard to Christ's suffering and death? (I'm assuming that's what is referred to by "afflictions")

Thanks and God Bless