Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

[Salty]

... Note that i did not start this conversation but by the rules of BB I can contribute

FTR - Ken H started this thread on 15 Feb

 

[Salty]

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[Earth Wind and Fire]

I DO NOT agree with the "most people" thing at the top of the thread, and apparently quoted in this reply.
I agree with canadyjd. To me, Lordship is the attitude of the heart. I hope my attitude is that the Lord Jesus is MY Lord, not me myself being my Lord. He's my Boss, my Master. That's an attitude. Will I mess up? I've messed up my whole life, but neither He nor I am keeping score. He's my Lord and Saviour, no matter what.

I think in LS he is like Santa Claus, ya better watch out ya better not cry… he sees you, He knows when you’ve been bad & good, so be good or you will be put on the naughty list

 

[DaveXR650]

I think in LS he is like Santa Claus, ya better watch out ya better not cry… he sees you, He knows when you’ve been bad & good, so be good or you will be put on the naughty list

As opposed to those who have put themselves on the "good list" and believe they are on the good list - because they have put themselves on the good list. They have a belief in their belief, no matter how they act or what they do. Any self examination is worldly and sinful. Of all the variations you see in handling justification and sanctification this is the most terrifying because it causes a person to inoculate themselves from any convicting work of the Holy Spirit or scripture and then actually laugh about it, all the while thinking they are right with God.

That is what Paul Washer was talking about in his message. That's what MacArthur was talking about. This was designed for a practical antinomianism that was rampant in Baptist churches a few years ago. The idea of this being a theological position was new to me and this thread has been useful in discovering the beliefs of the Primitive Baptist hyper-Calvinist. They are not the careless teens in Washer's audience, they are taking a thought out theological position that folds sanctification into justification, making it all one and all passive.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As opposed to those who have put themselves on the "good list" and believe they are on the good list - because they have put themselves on the good list. They have a belief in their belief, no matter how they act or what they do. Any self examination is worldly and sinful. Of all the variations you see in handling justification and sanctification this is the most terrifying because it causes a person to inoculate themselves from any convicting work of the Holy Spirit or scripture and then actually laugh about it, all the while thinking they are right with God.

That is what Paul Washer was talking about in his message. That's what MacArthur was talking about. This was designed for a practical antinomianism that was rampant in Baptist churches a few years ago. The idea of this being a theological position was new to me and this thread has been useful in discovering the beliefs of the Primitive Baptist hyper-Calvinist. They are not the careless teens in Washer's audience, they are taking a thought out theological position that folds sanctification into justification, making it all one

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[DaveXR650]

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

That's a fine statement. The issue MacArthur was getting at was how do you know that YOU are elect. Even high-Calvinists like Owen said the only way you know is by the effects of being elect. In other words you can examine yourself. For some reason you find that either contemptable or funny. I would be concerned. In 145 posts no one has shown MacArthur wrong. All you see is total smart aleck contempt or some kind of ethereal glorying in the wonderfulness of your feeling that you are elect. Anyone reading this thread should realize that Mac was on to something. It wasn't new. And if it applies to you take heed. If not, don't worry about it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's a fine statement. The issue MacArthur was getting at was how do you know that YOU are elect. Even high-Calvinists like Owen said the only way you know is by the effects of being elect. In other words you can examine yourself. For some reason you find that either contemptable or funny. I would be concerned. In 145 posts no one has shown MacArthur wrong. All you see is total smart aleck contempt or some kind of ethereal glorying in the wonderfulness of your feeling that you are elect. Anyone reading this thread should realize that Mac was on to something. It wasn't new. And if it applies to you take heed. If not, don't worry about it.

I told you already that I’m certain I’m saved. MacArthur has vastly confused eternal salvation with temporal gospel conversion. So do you know the difference? I kinda doubt it. As far as contempt is concerned, I really couldn’t care less… MacArthur is the one who has fronted an attack on my peoples understanding ( through scripture) of our belief system. Damn him for his arrogance! But it only made me stronger in my resolution that we PB’s are correct in our beliefs. My family and I will never move to a Synergist (man cooperates with God) belief system. God is sovereign, He doesn’t need my help.

 

[KenH]

Even high-Calvinists like Owen said the only way you know is by the effects of being elect.

If I am to look to some improvement in my behavior, then I am doomed. This old sinful body of mine is never going to be something I can take pride in. Then again, the Bible tells us about those who do:

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

(emphasis mine)

 

[DaveXR650]

If I am to look to some improvement in my behavior, then I am doomed. This old sinful body of mine is never going to be something I can take pride in. Then again, the Bible tells us about those who do:

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Exalted himself vs humbleth himself has nothing to do with Lordship Salvation. Luke 18:9-14 could just as easily be applied to someone who prides himself on being elect and not as other men are. To apply a passage about Pharisees to a Christian who has been sucked into thinking they are saved because of a "decision" made and no evidence of being born again shows a complete lack of discernment. The publican above is concerned and has knowledge of his sinfulness and is asking for mercy. These are signs of being born again and yes, of being "elect". You have created a false comparison, by mistake, I hope. Notice that the publican above did not simply declare himself forgiven and elect.

 

[KenH]

You have created a false comparison, by mistake, I hope.

I stand by what I wrote. This "decisionism" you speak of is caused by the free-willers who wrongly think that salvation is conditioned on the sinner(walking an aisle, making a decision, praying "The Sinner's Prayer", being baptised, et al) and not 100% based on Christ having fulfilled ALL of the conditions for their salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If I am to look to some improvement in my behavior, then I am doomed. This old sinful body of mine is never going to be something I can take pride in. Then again, the Bible tells us about those who do:

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

(emphasis mine)

It is God who exalts, not man. It is He that selects and Gives to the son, not man. So is there a problem with God being totally sovereign?

Also I don’t care what any legalistic Calvinist thinks. I view them as self styled legalists… even Pharisees who do laud sin over the people heads in order to bend them to there lifestyles. The word discipline is big in their churches as if they have the power and authority over others. Only God has that authority.

Think of it this way, a mother always loves her children, even though they err and sin… often exceedingly. Does that stop the mother from loving and nurturing her children? No she corrects and disciplines because they are her kids and God is that way. Look at David for example. He stood up for Hashem
With the PHILISTINES and God both loved rewarded him for it… but David always knew God loved him. But David also sinned exceedingly and paid the price. How about Solomon, Job, Samson, Moses etc? So Jacob I loved, Esau I HATED. Do you have the right to ask.I mean what did he really do, it was Jacob who cheated Esau. When looking at this we mortals can’t never be sure. All I can say is that God is sovereign and he don’t need my help. I’m not his partner, I’m his creation. Don’t make me quote Gods answer to Job when asked for an answer why he was being put thru travails ( my broken wrist prevents much typing)

 

[MB]

Lordship Salvation is the doctrinal position that receiving Christ involves a strong emphasis on the initial commitment of the sinner to the Lordship of Christ by obedience to the Moral Law of God, repentance of their sins, a progressive increase in godliness, holiness and sinning less, as assurance of salvation. This is what they consider Christ Jesus as being Lord of your life. It also maintains the doctrine that makes Perseverance an emphasis over Preservation. Those who hold to Lordship see this, not only as a requirement, but as already mentioned - a basis for their assurance. Anything less than this emphasis they consider to be “easy believism” in their mind. Lordship Salvation says a lack of obedience in a person’s life is warrant to doubt that one is even saved. Just how much obedience is required for acceptance with God is not clearly spelled out in most Lordship camps, but you can gather that it is never enough to get rid of the burden on their backs.

...

It does seem that most who advocate Lordship Salvation do lift up popular Arminian preachers and theologians who were famous for supposedly "living godly lives", such as heretics like John Wesley, for example. Many of these heretics are the heroes of the Lordship advocates. The problem is, Arminianism is clearly a false gospel and Arminians do NOT have a proper foundation for anything they say about "holy living" since they condition salvation on the sinner in the first place.

Let us be clear that this is not at all a defense for an Arminian Baptist position on Non-Lordship Salvation because they have no real ground for eternal salvation and have a christ who died for many who end up in hell. They have no clue how God saves sinners in the first place.

- excerpt from Pastor Scott Price's webpage on "Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation" - Lordship Salvation

Doesn't the Bible say there is no man with out sin? It seems to me that Christ had to die for the sin of men. No one leads a perfect holy life.
MB

 

[KenH]

The word discipline is big in their churches as if they have the power and authority over others.

Yeah, I have heard that there are "Calvinistic" or "Reformed" churches that might be pretty sound on soteriology, but then insist on works to prove salvation and if your works don't measure up, well, then maybe you aren't saved. Which then leads to telling people they can never be sure they are saved while they are alive on this earth because they have to see if their works continue all the way to the end of life.

 

[KenH]

No one leads a perfect holy life.

Correct. That is why God's elect look to Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, as the elect have no righteousness of their own to plead.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, I have heard that there are "Calvinistic" or "Reformed" churches that might be pretty sound on soteriology, but then insist on works to prove salvation and if your works don't measure up, well, then maybe you aren't saved. Which then leads to telling people they can never be sure they are saved while they are alive on this earth because they have to see if their works continue all the way to the end of life.

…and so they judge the poor parishioners who are taught to jump all the hoops of their belief system… pure legalism ( not God ). Obey, obedience, disobey the script at your peril. Now that’s true, dare I say it, Hyper Calvinism. Man centered, hateful, deceitful etc all hallmarks of false gospel teachings.

 

[Salty]

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