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Sanctification not inclusive of Justification

The Biblicist

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Let's get this straight! You are admitting that Paul is contrasting justification by works with justification by faith but yet demanding that there is no contrast between justification by works and justification by faith because faith is of works??? You talk about pure DOUBLE TALK!

Let the readers cleary see that the subject in Romans 3:26-5:1 is "justification by faith" (Rom. 3:28)


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.



in contrast to "justification by works" (Rom. 4:2).


2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


There is no contrast being made by Paul between "justification by grace" and "justification by faith" as they are inclusive of each other. Hence, SMB is reading into this text what Paul neither states or means.

Furthermore the Aorist tense completed action of "believed" in Romans 4:3 is then explained to be "of grace" in Romans 4:4-6 instead of "of works" and Paul places all three action words "believeth...justifieth....imputeth" in the present tense to show concurrent action in regard to the TRANSITION point when the "ungodly" becomes righteous before God. These present tense verbs deny Paul is speaking about justification APART FROM faith whether in eternity past or in the life and death of Christ. Again proving that SBM's doctrine of justification is false.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I know SBM and you have the thread going on for some time now. However, with your original thread I see some problems with your indication of the catholic position with regard to Justification and Sanctification. I would like to clear it up on this thread but I don't know how far your discussion has progressed. However, I would like to further clarify the Catholic position. Would that be Ok or do I need to start another thread? Which would you prefer?
 

The Biblicist

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I know SBM and you have the thread going on for some time now. However, with your original thread I see some problems with your indication of the catholic position with regard to Justification and Sanctification. I would like to clear it up on this thread but I don't know how far your discussion has progressed. However, I would like to further clarify the Catholic position. Would that be Ok or do I need to start another thread? Which would you prefer?

Actually, SBM has derailed the thread from its original intent which was to discuss the relationship between justification and sanctification in the book of Romans.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Actually, SBM has derailed the thread from its original intent which was to discuss the relationship between justification and sanctification in the book of Romans.

May I then put for the Catholic position regarding Justification and sanctification and apply as I see it to the book of Romans then?
 

The Biblicist

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I know SBM and you have the thread going on for some time now. However, with your original thread I see some problems with your indication of the catholic position with regard to Justification and Sanctification. I would like to clear it up on this thread but I don't know how far your discussion has progressed. However, I would like to further clarify the Catholic position. Would that be Ok or do I need to start another thread? Which would you prefer?

Just for clarification purposes the following statement I made in the first post:

Rome and those who follow her basic soteriology attempt to define justification so that it is inclusive of sanctification.

was used only to introduce Rome's soterology which from the Biblical perspective treats progressive sanctification in the same way as justification in regard to entrance into heaven and final judgement. From that point forward the emphasis shifted to "those" who follower her "basic soteriology" or this merging of justification with sanctification.

I fully well know from a technical point of view that Rome claims an initial point of justification in baptism but also claims that justification "entails the sanctification of his whole being" (CCC #1995). Thus for all practical purposes makes justification a progressive work of conformation to the righteousness of Christ. Thus changing Biblical justification from an IMPUTED positional work to an IMPARTED work personal work.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Just for clarification purposes the following statement I made in the first post:

Rome and those who follow her basic soteriology attempt to define justification so that it is inclusive of sanctification.

was used only to introduce Rome's soterology which from the Biblical perspective treats progressive sanctification in the same way as justification in regard to entrance into heaven and final judgement. From that point forward the emphasis shifted to "those" who follower her "basic soteriology" or this merging of justification with sanctification.

I fully well know from a technical point of view that Rome claims an initial point of justification in baptism but also claims that justification "entails the sanctification of his whole being" (CCC #1995). Thus for all practical purposes makes justification a progressive work of conformation to the righteousness of Christ. Thus changing Biblical justification from an IMPUTED positional work to an IMPARTED work personal work.
Ok we can start there. You seem to get the basic thrust or view of the Catholic Position. I'll try to provide support as I see it for the Catholic view using scripture and then make application to the book of Romans. Fair? However, with other people in mind I might explain a few things that you may already be aware of.
 

The Biblicist

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Ok we can start there. You seem to get the basic thrust or view of the Catholic Position. I'll try to provide support as I see it for the Catholic view using scripture and then make application to the book of Romans. Fair? However, with other people in mind I might explain a few things that you may already be aware of.

Take it away!
 

savedbymercy

New Member
the bib

Let's get this straight! You are admitting that Paul is contrasting justification by works with justification by faith

Wait a minute now, are you the reincarnation of Paul ? I did not know Paul was posting in this thread !

I have yet to see Paul teach the heresy you teach, Justification by works, a man's act of faith, and regeneration through faith ! The New Birth is through the Resurrection of Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

begotten us again means:

to produce again, be born again, born anew

2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
 

The Biblicist

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the bib



Wait a minute now, are you the reincarnation of Paul ?

Look! You don't even have sufficient common sense to logically follow your own posts! Go back and read your own post that I responded to! You are the one (not Paul) that admitted that Paul's made a contrast between works and faith! That was YOUR COMMENT - that was YOUR ADMISSION.


I agree with that, in fact I have already stated that Paul was making a contrast - SBM - Post #39

I simply pointed out that YOUR ADMISSION was not coherent or logical with itself much less with Paul's Words.
 

The Biblicist

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Ok we can start there. You seem to get the basic thrust or view of the Catholic Position. I'll try to provide support as I see it for the Catholic view using scripture and then make application to the book of Romans. Fair? However, with other people in mind I might explain a few things that you may already be aware of.

I have started a new thread. SBM makes it his hobby of derailing threads to suit his own interests.
 

The Biblicist

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Let the readers cleary see that the subject in Romans 3:26-5:1 is "justification by faith" (Rom. 3:28)


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.



in contrast to "justification by works" (Rom. 4:2).


2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


There is no contrast being made by Paul between "justification by grace" and "justification by faith" as they are inclusive of each other. Hence, SMB is reading into this text what Paul neither states or means.

Furthermore the Aorist tense completed action of "believed" in Romans 4:3 is then explained to be "of grace" in Romans 4:4-6 instead of "of works" and Paul places all three action words "believeth...justifieth....imputeth" in the present tense to show concurrent action in regard to the TRANSITION point when the "ungodly" becomes righteous before God. These present tense verbs deny Paul is speaking about justification APART FROM faith whether in eternity past or in the life and death of Christ. Again proving that SBM's doctrine of justification is false.

Here is my post again! Do you find me saying I am Paul? I quoted Paul's words to show that your admission followed by contradicting your own admission does not maken any sense nor does it agree with Paul's words.
 

The Biblicist

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Let's get this straight! You are admitting that Paul is contrasting justification by works with justification by faith but yet demanding that there is no contrast between justification by works and justification by faith because faith is of works??? You talk about pure DOUBLE TALK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbymercy
I agree with that, in fact I have already stated that Paul was making a contrast, but Paul never said that believing is not a work. !


In the first part of your sentence you admit Paul is contrasting faith to works but in the second part of your sentence you are denying they are contrasted but inclusive of each other - make up your mind!

Either way, what you say and what Paul said contradicts.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Most of what I confer here is gleened from a paper provided by David J. Palm to the Midwest Baptist Conference Theological Workshop on Feb. 29th 1996. Having read this paper I think it most clearly express my thinking as well as the Catholic Point view regarding the topic of Sanctification and Justification. Interesting to note in providing the basis of seperation (and in certain area's there is agreement), Palm used John Murray's book "Redepmtion Accomplished and Applied". This being the case I will also quote from this book though I haven't read it entirely. G.E. Ladd from his book "A Theology of the New Testatment" states that
The idea expressed by dikaioo is "to declare righteous," not "to make righteous." As we shall see, the root idea in justification is the declaration of God, the righteous judge, that the man who believes in Christ, sinful though he may be, is righteous is viewed as being righteous, because in Christ he has come into a righteous relationship with God.
As David Palm indicates this particular view of Justification is forensic or "a once for all decree" soley resulting in a change of relationship. This occures at the point of reception of a "saving faith". In this view, there is no fundamental change in a person's nature which can be seened as the oft quoted analogy of Martin Luther's "snow covered dung hill". Thus there is no process. Thus it is imputed as you've mentioned several times. The problem with this view fundamentally as I see it is that ultimately, since by this Justification we are declaired righteous and we are garmented or clothed with "Christ's righteousness", we objectively remain sinners. So as Alister McGrath says in his "Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification, the beginings to the Reformation", 2 vol 1:182 via David Palm's Paper "Catholic Teachiing of Justificaiton and Sanctification p. 7
through his justification, man is intrinsically sinful yet extrinsically righteous.
David Palm further indicates that
Paul never expressly states that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers. His words are "And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, hisfaith is reckoned as righteousness" Rom 4:3 NAS

With this in mind it is important to note that
The official catholic position concerning justification is not in any way oppposed to the idea that justification consist of God's declaration of righteousness. Nor does the Church oppose the idea that justification is in some sense forensic. The Council of Trent can speak of justification as declaritive: Finally, the one formal cause [of justification] is the justness of God: not that by which he himself is just, but that by which he makes us just and endowed with which we are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and are not merely considered to be just but we are truly named and are just (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification

And here is the crux. Catholics believe that God's declarative word as effective and sees that is how scripture express it as well.
For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not retun there without watering the earth, and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So shall my word be which goes forth from My mouth: It shall not return to me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter which I sent it - Is 55"10-11
Cardinal Newman expresses this view simply by stating
God's word, I say, effects what it announces.
Romans 4:17 further shows this characteristic
calls into being that which does not exist.
Thus Cardinal Newman says
He solemnly utters the command, Let the soul be just, it becomes inwardly just. - Lectures on the Doctrine of Justification
which seems to me to confer with 1 Pet 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God
So David Palm can say
And so the Catholic exegete acknowledges that dikaioo in specific contexts often means " to declare righteous," but this does not settle the case...First, we should note that "verbs in -oo mean to make whatever the root indicates. Thus dikaioo should properly mean 'make just' And keeping in mind, the fact that it often means "declare righteous" in many 0o f the passages adduced as evidence for purely forensic righteiousness becomes somewhat less significant. For all of the secular uses and many of the OT uses have human agents as the subject o fhte verb. But since a human being is intrinsically unable to "make" anything by righteous by a verdict, in these context the verb takes on a nuance not native to its underlying formation, namely "to declare righteous." But as we have seen above the declaration of God has no such intrincic restrictions and thus we should allow the word to have is natural meaning of "making righteous."
As we can see in Paul's thought process in Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

If declaration soley is what is meant then we have the added problem of this passage
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked
Where Palm notes
that God who has sworn that he "will not justify the wicked" is now said to justify men while leaving them sinners.

Now you may take the route saying that a man is righteous "who has fulfilled the demands laid upon him by the relationshiop in which he stands"; Yet this doesn't reflect the person's ethical character but a "faithfulness to a relationship". However, it is clear in scripture that men are capabable of doing things that are righteous:
Matt 6:1
Matt 24:31-40
Luke 1:6
Matt 5:20
Acts 10:35
and 1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
as well as 1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous
Especially not what John says in 1 john 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
where john says we can be righteous by acting righteous.

So with this in mind I view several things in Romans for (in my perspective a more full context). Note in Romans 1 the context and the foundation is laid with the introduction that is often over looked.
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[c] faith for his name’s sake.
Calling the Gentiles to specifically Obedience which comes from Faith, which Paul also book ends his entire epistle as we see in the last chapter as well
so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[f] faith —
The call is to obedience upon reciept of faith Which is the greater context of the letter because it begins and ends with it. Look at Roman 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
So in summery it can be succinctly said of the Catholic view that
Justificatoin is both an even and a process, it is not suprising that it should be closely linked to sanctification...obedience to Christ."

I've run out of time. I'll have to get back latter but here is a starting point. I want to deal more with Romans at a later time.
 

Yeshua1

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the bib



Believing is a work, an act of man, in any context it is used.

What MUST I do to get saved? i am NOT saved right here and now!

Beieve/receive by faith jesus as messiah, and than you SHALL be saved!

Future act based upon future act of faith!
 

savedbymercy

New Member
the bib

In the first part of your sentence you admit Paul is contrasting faith to works

Yes, He is contrasting being Justified by works, [something man does] and being Justifed by Faith, something that is revealed to man.

However Paul does not teach that one is Justifed by works, what something a man does !

but in the second part of your sentence you are denying they are contrasted but inclusive of each other

No they are. There is a big difference in being Justified by what one does, and believing what was revelaed, that God Justifed you because of what Christ did in your behalf. Faith reveals to one that their Justification before God was accomplised in their behalf at the Cross !

You on the other hand teach that one gets Justifed before God because of their act of believing, whereas before their act of believing took place, they were not Justified before God.

Is that what you believe ? Answer honestly, unless I have misunderstood your posts, that one is not Justified before God before they believe ?
 

The Biblicist

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the bib



Yes, He is contrasting being Justified by works, [something man does] and being Justifed by Faith, something that is revealed to man.

Where does one begin with such a mess?

A "revelation" is not something a man does, controls, empowers, or effects and thus cannot in any way be regarded as a "work" of man. Man is merely the recipient of a 'revelation."

Second, you have changed your previous definition of "faith" from something a man DOES to that which "is revealed to man." Your change only condemns your view as your new definition of "justified" by faith to mean "revealed" by faith makes man the passive object of something only God can do in man.



However Paul does not teach that one is Justifed by works, what something a man does !

YOU are the only that has argued that justification by faith would be justificaiton by works instead of by grace - NOT I!



No they are. There is a big difference in being Justified by what one does, and believing what was revelaed, that God Justifed you because of what Christ did in your behalf. Faith reveals to one that their Justification before God was accomplised in their behalf at the Cross !

Paul's argument is not between "justified by works" versus "revealed by faith"!!!!!! That is something YOU INVENTED but not Paul as Paul demands we are "JUSTIFIED by faith" not "REVEALED by faith."

YOU ARE CHANGING PAUL'S LANGUAGE TO FIT YOUR HERESY!

You on the other hand teach that one gets Justifed before God because of their act of believing, whereas before their act of believing took place, they were not Justified before God.

No sir! Paul is the one who demands that we are "JUSTIFIED BY faith" before God and not I:

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is that what you believe ? Answer honestly, unless I have misunderstood your posts, that one is not Justified before God before they believe ?

You are asking if I believe Romans 3:28 for what it says? You are asking me if I believe "a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH"? Of course I believe what he says but YOU DO NOT! You change the words "justified by faith" to "revealed by faith" and anyone knows that the term "justified" does not mean "revealed" no matter how hard you try to make it mean that.

You simply do not believe the Word of God and so you CHANGE IT to fit what you want to believe.
 

savedbymercy

New Member
the bib


A "revelation" is not something a man does

Misrepresentation already, show us any where in the post that I stated that revelation is something man does ! A revelation is something man believes. Now show whre I made that statement, or admit you are being deceitful again !
 

savedbymercy

New Member
the bib

Second, you have changed your previous definition of "faith" from something a man DOES to that which "is revealed to man."

It is Both, the Gospel [Faith] is revealed to Faith ! Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Gospel is called the Faith. Paul said He preached the Faith Rom 10:8

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Gal 1:23

But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Now, that Faith [ The Gospel ] is Preached to the Elect and it then Reveals to them the Gospel of their salvation in Christ, and they believe it with God given Faith !
 

The Biblicist

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the bib




Misrepresentation already, show us any where in the post that I stated that revelation is something man does ! A revelation is something man believes. Now show whre I made that statement, or admit you are being deceitful again !

How can anyone deal with someone that cannot even reason logically??????????:BangHead::BangHead:

You defined "works" as something one does. You defined faith as something one does. Hence, you defined both works and faith as something one does. Then you substituted the term "revealed" for the term "faith" which you have previously defined as something one does equals works.

However, the term "revealed" has nothing to do with what a man does. The gospel reveals but the gospel is not faith! Go figure!
 
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