Sanctification not inclusive of Justification

[The Biblicist]

the bib



It is Both, the Gospel [Faith] is revealed to Faith ! Rom 1:16-17

You have not only made "works" equal "faith" equal "revealed" but now equal "gospel"! One error must lead to another error infintum.

You just change Biblical words and redefine them to suit your little depraved mind in order to justify your depraved doctrines of demons.

 

[savedbymercy]

You have not only made "works" equal "faith" equal "revealed" but now equal "gospel"! One error must lead to another error infintum.

You just change Biblical words and redefine them to suit your little depraved mind in order to justify your depraved doctrines of demons.

You do not know the first thing about salvation !

 

[The Biblicist]

​

You do not know the first thing about salvation !

Look whose talking! You are treating the scriptures like trash, replacing Biblical language with your own terms, redefining terms and then redefining them again to contradict your first definitions.

You can do a lot of talking but you cannot do Bible exegesis at all! You have not answered one single solitary Biblical based objection that I have provided. You just ignore them and spout off hot air that has no basis at all.

Your statements have no logic, no Biblical basis, no coherency but you never get tired of telling us what you obviously do not know a thing about!

 

[The Biblicist]

SBM cannot answer why Romans 3:27-4:6 is contrasting "works" with "faith" instead of "works/faith" with "grace"?

SMB cannot answer why Romans 3:3-4 teaches that "works" cannot be counted "of grace" but "believed" can be counted for righteousness and even he admits this righteousness is "by grace."

SMB cannot answer why Paul uses present tenses with "believeth...imputeth....justifieth" in regard to the "ungodly" proving that these things did not occur in eternity past or with the life of Christ but are concurrent with each other at the point of transition when the "ungodly" is "righteous" before God by these actions.

SMB cannot answer why Paul demands "faith" is "by grace" in Romans 4:16 since he says faith is "of works" and not "by grace" (v. 16) or "of grace" (Rom. 4:3-4).


SMB is teaching false doctrine pure and simple.

Here is another post unanswered by SBM

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, I commend you on at least attempting to substantiate your ideas by the text. However, what does Paul say is "counted for righteousness"? Does he say the redemptive work of Christ WITHOUT faith is "counted for righteousness" for the "ungodly"????????? OR does he say "HIS FAITH"???


Look at Abraham's imputation of righteousness in verse 3

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What was counted unto him for righteousness? Did Paul say the redemptive work of Christ WITHOUT FAITH was counted unto him for righteousness? OR did Paul say "Abraham BELIEVED...IT was counted unto him for righteousness.

Finally, if God justified the "ungodly" by the redemptive work of Christ WITHOUT works or faith then please tell us why does Paul make the silly continuous contrast between "works" and "faith" in direct regard to justification of the "ungodly" from Romans 3:27-4:6???????

If your position were correct shouldn't Paul be contrasting "works" versus "Christ's redemption" in Romans 3:27-4:6 rather than contrasting justification "BY" works versus "BY" faith (Rom. 3:28) in Romans 3:27-4:6???

Here is another post that SBM has not even attempted to give a rational response to.

 

[savedbymercy]

Here is another post that SBM has not even attempted to give a rational response to.

Believing is a work, its an act of the mind ! If you base your Justification before God on an act you did, that is being Justified by your works , which denies the Truth of scripture !

You need to show me one scripture that states unequivocally that believing is not an work. That you have failed to do !

For I have proven my point that believing is a work, for it falls into the definition of a work when the word work is defined, it is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is accomplished or done by the mind ! Its a work !

Now its on you to prove that believing is not a work ! You cannot accomplish that by asking me to exegete a chapter of scripture, for what ? That is not going to all of the sudden make believing not an act of the mind, a work !

Now , you have a rationale response !

 

[The Biblicist]

Believing is a work,

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Paul does not agree with you! He says justification is BY FAITH and is "of faith" but it is not "of works" and "without works" while YOU say it is.

You go to an English Dictionary to prove your theology while I go to Paul to prove my theology! Uhmmmmm? Now which source is inspired????? Uhmmmm???


1. Justification by faith according to SGM "BELIEVING IS A WORK"

2. Justification by faith according to Paul "Justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS"


1. Faith according to SGM "BELIEVING IS A WORK"

2. Faith according to Paul - "of works? NAY" - Rom. 3:27


1. Justification according to SGM "BELIEVING IS A WORK"

2. Justification according to Paul - "of works? NAY....of faith....without works" - Rom. 3:27


1. Faith according to SGM "BELIEVING IS A WORK"

2. Faith according to Paul - "of faith that it might by BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16



1. SGM's source - Dictionary & human logic

2. Paul's source - Holy Spirit inspriation

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

All that is True, however, nothing there about believing not being a work. Read:

Believing is a work, its an act of the mind ! If you base your Justification before God on an act you did, that is being Justified by your works , which denies the Truth of scripture !

You need to show me one scripture that states unequivocally that believing is not an work. That you have failed to do !

For I have proven my point that believing is a work, for it falls into the definition of a work when the word work is defined, it is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is accomplished or done by the mind ! Its a work !

Now its on you to prove that believing is not a work ! You cannot accomplish that by asking me to exegete a chapter of scripture, for what ? That is not going to all of the sudden make believing not an act of the mind, a work !

 

[savedbymercy]

You have not only made "works" equal "faith" equal "revealed" but now equal "gospel"! One error must lead to another error infintum.

You just change Biblical words and redefine them to suit your little depraved mind in order to justify your depraved doctrines of demons.

Faith in the scripture is used in different ways. Now Faith as Believing is an act of man, something man is commanded to do Mark 11:22

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

In the greek this is an imperative Jesus is giving, something He commands to do ; much like commanding one to Believe !

However also Faith is defined as a revealer Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith reveals or makes known the unseen spiritual realities of spiritual things, it gives substance to them, and gives evidence of them !

In this sense of Faith, man is passive, but it will lead unto him being active in his embracing those revealed truths with his mind and heart !

Sometimes Faith in the bible means a doctrine, as when Jude writes Jude 1:3

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Faith here means doctrine !

Faith has been used to mean Christ as here Gal 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So you see, one must know how to rightly divide the word of Truth and understand how Faith is being used so that it cannot contradict other portions of clear revealed Truth. False teachers do not do this, they handle the word deceitfully, which you are in my opinion most guilty of !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

They reason that justification is without works, that is, works of the flesh, or works of the law, or works of the ceremonial law, or by some kind of works not produced by the Spirit.

Yet if a man says he believed on Christ for salvation or justification before the New Birth, then they are stating they were Justified by the flesh. Because before regeneration man has only the mind of the flesh to believe with ! For that which is flesh is flesh Jesus says Jn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So if a man has not been born again before he believed, then he believed with a fleshly mind, and if Justified before God because of that, then he claims Justification before God because of a deed acted with his fleshly mind !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Therefore, those who argue that this believing person has already been justified is repudiated by Paul in verse 5 and the present tense "justifieth" the 'UNGODLY" rather than past tense already "justified".

The present tense here actually confounds your understanding and confirms mine, because Paul says God is Justifying the Ungodly, he cannot be a believer and be the ungodly at the same time !

The present tense also is modifying ungodly, God does Justify those who are being ungodly in themselves, the same as Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while being enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, here enemies is in the present tense [while being enemies by nature] we were reconciled [aorist tense passive] to God by the Death of His Son.

Reconciled and Justified are the same ! For one cannot possibly be reconciled to God without Justification from all sin !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



The present tense here actually confounds your understanding and confirms mine, because Paul says God is Justifying the Ungodly, he cannot be a believer and be the ungodly at the same time !

The present tense also is modifying ungodly, God does Justify those who are being ungodly in themselves, the same as Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while being enemies.

The problem with your interpretation of the present tense is that all three verbs are present tense and not just one.

1. "beleiveth"
2. "Justifieth"
3. "is counted"

Moreover, not only does one present tense modify the "ungodly" but all three do.

So, It is IMPOSSIBLE grammatically to say as you do and to claim as you do that what Paul is describing took place in eternity or during the time of Christ.

However, what I have said is probably over your head so I will break it down in baby steps.

1. All three present tenses modifying "ungodly" demand simeltaneous action of all three verbs and thus these things occurred TOGETHER WHEN the ungodly is BELIEVING which did not occur before the world began or at the time when Christ lived and died.

2. Simeltaneous action means that WHEN the "ungodly" was in the act of "believing" he was at the same time being "counted" righteousness and at the same time being "justified."

You will have to reject or rewrite what Paul said to justify your interpetations and false doctrines.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

The problem with your interpretation of the present tense is that all three verbs are present tense and not just one.

No problem, the ungodly is in a state of Justification !

And if being ungodly, that means it is prior to believing ! You cooked your own goose lol !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



No problem, the ungodly is in a state of Justification !

And if being ungodly, that means it is prior to believing ! You cooked your own goose lol !

You simply did not understand what I said or what the grammar demanded. Do you know what simeltaneous means?

In other words, there is a TRANSITION POINT where one shifts from unbelief to belief. All three verbs use the present tense of simeltaneous action to describe that shifting point. The person is ungodly because that point is in process from moving from unbelief to belief and therefore from unjustified to justified and from non-imputation to imputation.

This repudiates your doctrine of eternal justification apart from faith completely and entirely and there is nothing you can do about it but get mad, ignore God's Word, change God's Word, repent or as is most likely the truth will further sear your conscience against the truth aand you will redefine or repudiate Paul's words.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You simply did not understand what I said or what the grammar demanded

I do not what you mean, but the grammer puts them being in a state of Justification while being in a state of ungodliness ! That thwarts your falsehoods. It also shows that you know nothing of the greek, it makes you appear foolish !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



I do not what you mean

You have confessed the honest truth! Go back and reread what I said. I broke it down in bite size peices for you.


In other words, there is a TRANSITION POINT where one shifts from unbelief to belief. All three verbs use the present tense of simeltaneous action to describe that shifting point. The person is ungodly because that point is in process from moving from unbelief to belief and therefore from unjustified to justified and from non-imputation to imputation.

This repudiates your doctrine of eternal justification apart from faith completely and entirely and there is nothing you can do about it but get mad, ignore God's Word, change God's Word, repent or as is most likely the truth will further sear your conscience against the truth aand you will redefine or repudiate Paul's words.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You have confessed the honest truth! Go back and reread what I said. I broke it down in bite size peices for you.

All you have done is shred God's word to pieces with your incompetent self. Thats why you always bring up grammar, so you can twist it to your errors. However, Rom 4:5 speaks against your errors, it confirms what I have stated all the time, that God Justifies the Ungodly ! For your errors to be true and have validity, it would have to read that God is Justifying those who are believing, but it does not say that, for He is Justifying those who are Ungodly ! Its the same as those being reconciled, while they are being enemies or ungodly !

Being reconciled to God and Justified before God are the same thing, for one cannot be reconciled to God if they are not Justified from all sin !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

This repudiates your doctrine of eternal justification

Thats false, the Elect are Justified from all sin before the world began, for God never imputed their sins to them, but to Christ when He was made their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant. So the Elect world never had their trespasses imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That's a Gospel Truth as we see it here being preached by Paul ! So you tell us from scripture when did God impute trespasses legally against the Elect ? All I am going to do is show 2 Cor 5:19 to show you in error. Now go get your grammar argument out to hide behind your incompetency !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



All you have done is shred God's word to pieces with your incompetent self.

Is that why you cannot respond coherently and rationally to any objection I have made thus far?

For example, you claim that justification by grace is the theme of Romans 3:24-5:2 and is contrasted to justification by faith which is works but that is not what Paul says nor what he claims he is contrasting in Romans 3:28.

For example, you claim that Paul is teaching either eternal justification or justification by the work of Christ in Romans 3:24-5:2 and yet the consistent contrast from Romans 3:24-5:2 is justification by faith to justification by works and justification is not even considered apart from faith in this text.

For example, you refuse to accept that all three terms ("beleiveth, justifieth, is counted") are present tense terms denoting simeltaneous action and all modifying the person defined as "ungody" in Romans 4:5-6 and therefore justification is inseparable from believeth -which also you deny.

In short, your understanding of scripture is based upon CULTIC hermeneutics of the RJP type (Run, jump, pit) and complete incapability of doing any exegetical based interpretation and thus based upon ignorance of God's Word.

No amount of evidence of any kind or any amount is relevant to what you believe because your conscience is seared by error and you have already made up your mind in spite of overwhelming Biblical evidence that proves you are wrong.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Is that why you cannot respond coherently and rationally to any objection I have made thus far?

There is no reason to respond to all that vain babblings of yours, The Truth is right there, God was Justifying the Ungodly !