Sanctification not inclusive of Justification

[savedbymercy]

the bib

My position and my interpretation of scriptures demand that election is to salvation not to damnation.

That is bogus, if any believe in Election to Salvation, then the alternative is True as well, the rest were picked out for blindness. Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Jesus had a Twofold Purpose, He came that some would see [Salvation] and that some would be blinded [Reprobation] Jn 9:38-39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see [The Election of Grace]; and that they which see might be made blind[The serpents seed.

Scripture teaches that God made some of His creatures as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Prov 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

When He made the Wicked, He made them for a specific purpose, Reprobation ! Reprobation is election to damnation !

You do not preach reprobation , you do not preach the Gospel, for it is part of the whole Counsel of God !

My understanding of Romans 9 is that God's election was in regard to mankind already in a fallen state due to sin

Thats false, because if that was True, Rom 9:11 could not possibly be True, and that is God's Election is not contingent of men doing Good or Evil

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

Now , you are saying that it [Election] was in regard to mankind fallen in sin, which means evil must have had been committed or else how did they become sinful ?

Furthermore, none whom sinned in Adam will go to hell, for Mankind in Adam was Created in the very Image and Likeness of God, and God is not about to concede to the Devil such a victory as to cause God to punish eternally anyone one of His Sons,m For Adam was the Natural Head and Federal Head of the Sons of God Lk 3:38

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Also Paul teaches the redemption of all who died in Adam here in Romans 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The All men are the same in both cases, They are just being described in their Federal and Natural Head Adam and their Federal and Spiritual Head Christ !

The only folk going to Eternal damnation are the Serpents Seed Matt 23:32-33

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell ?

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



That is bogus, if any believe in Election to Salvation, then the alternative is True as well, the rest were picked out for blindness. Rom 11:5-7

Please provide any scripture where the term "choose" or "chosen" or "elect" or "election" are used for anyone going to hell? YOU WILL IGNORE THIS QUESTION BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ANSWER IT.

Scripture teaches that God made some of His creatures as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why did you stop at verse 22? I will tell you why because those chosen by God are called vessels "OF MERCY." Do you know the difference between "mercy" and "grace"? The preceding context from verse 16-18 is talking about God having "MERCY" on whom he wills. Do you understand the term "mercy" and what it demands? Mercy is extended only to those who DESERVE judgement. A prefallen sinless race of mankind does not stand judicially condemned because they are prefallen and because they are sinless. Mercy demands they are being regarded from a FALLEN CONDITION and the the one lump of clay represents FALLEN MANKIND not prefallen mankind or else the term "MERCY" is absurd and incorrect.

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This verse is speaking of the ultimate conclusion of things. All things will ultimate glorify God and in that perspective the wicked will glorify God's justice.

Thats false, because if that was True, Rom 9:11 could not possibly be True, and that is God's Election is not contingent of men doing Good or Evil

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

No contradiction here at all. Mankind was condemned in Adam at the fall. Therefore, no FUTURE works by yet unborn individuals of that race could possibly be the condition for election.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Please provide any scripture where the term "choose" or "chosen" or "elect" or "election" are used for anyone going to hell?

You do not have to have the term, if the principle is scriptural !

But the idea of election to wrath is prevalent here also 1 Thess 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The us here is the Elect who have been appointed to obtain Salvation as Per 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Now, this is in obvious contradistinction to the vessels of wrath[Rom 9:22] who have been appointed to wrath !

The word appointed in 1 Thess 5:9 can be translated destined as per

ESV For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

NASB For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

WNT For God has not pre-destined us to meet His anger, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ;

Now the case is obvious enough, If Paul states that some were not appointed to wrath, then some were ! Who were they ? Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


If these are things you do not know and understand and preach in the Gospel, you preach a false Gospel !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

No contradiction here at all. Mankind was condemned in Adam at the fall

Election to salvation is prefall ! And the condemnation of the Elect was never imputed to them, but to their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace !

If you teach that God's Purpose of Election is contingent upon fallen Adam, and the Elect in Him, you have God responding to something that occurred in time, also you overthrow the Elective Principle stated here Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

Also with that principle in Mind, The Children, those God gave Christ in Election as in Heb 2:13

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The Children are not elected based upon good or evil, that the Purpose of Election might stand !

You deny this sacred principle with your heresy !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

This verse is speaking of the ultimate conclusion of things

Prov 16:4 is speaking about what it says, the wicked ! And yes their ultimate conclusion , from before the time they were made, was their Eternal desruction in the day of wrath. Job knew of this Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Its the same group as in Prov 16:4, you really have no business Preaching the Gospel with your lack of understanding on these things.

All you have done so far is deny Truth !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



You do not have to have the term

Thank you for that honest admission because those terms are never ever used in connection with the damned in hell - NEVER!

if the principle is scriptural !

According to whose interpertation of the scriptures???


You are deducting an ASSUMPTION not necessary to the texts you will use to invent that principle.

Since the Scriptures are clear that the basis of election is the MERCY of God and the rejected by God is due to God's good pleasure not to have MERCY upon the non-elect - that destroys your so-called "principle."

Hence, all mankind DESERVE wrath "in Adam" when he sinned and God could JUSTLY condemn the whole human race "in Adam" when Adam sinned to hell by condemning Adam to hell. However, he determined to have MERCY and elect some to hell while not having mercy upon the rest and allowing the justly condemned, born as children of disobedience which were by NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH to right on in their enmity and rebellion against God.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Election to salvation is prefall

! Already proved it is not because the vessels are called vessels "OF MERCY" and there is no need for mercy if election is the choice of PRE-FALLEN SINLESS humanity as there is NO JUST BASIS FOR THEIR CONDEMNATION much less the need of MERCY!

Your assertion that election and damnation are based upon SOVEREIGN choice is not a matter of justice or mercy. Mercy can only enter the picture where there is a JUST basis for condemnation. Hence, election is God response to a FALLEN and JUSTLY CONDEMNED humanity.

God is a HOLY and a JUST God and God does not abritrarily condemn people to hell without a JUST and HOLY basis found IN THEM. God cannot condemn SINLESSNESS without condemning His own NATURE!

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

! Already proved it is not because the vessels are called vessels "OF MERCY" and there is no need for mercy if election is the choice of PRE-FALLEN SINLESS humanity as there is NO JUST BASIS FOR THEIR CONDEMNATION much less the need of MERCY!

You have not proved anything but that you reject scripture. Election is not based upon doing good or evil Rom 9:11

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

Your assertion that election and damnation are based upon SOVEREIGN choice is not a matter of justice or mercy.

Yes it is, that is exactly what it is ! Yes, God did Elect to dam the reprobrate for their sins, howver that is not underying motive, His Glory is that ! Nothing outside God moves Him to do anything but, only Hos own Glory. You think of God as yourself !

God is a HOLY and a JUST God and God does not abritrarily condemn people to hell without a JUST and HOLY basis

That is right, and that is why He created them to be vessels of wrath, for that was His purpose for their creation , to punish them for their sins, and to make them fit for the same !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Thank you for that honest admission because those terms are never ever used in connection with the damned in hell - NEVER!

You do not have to have the term, the Truth is still scriptural !

According to whose interpertation of the scriptures???

Its not my interpretation, its scripture which you reject !

Since the Scriptures are clear that the basis of election is the MERCY of God and the rejected by God is due to God's good pleasure not to have MERCY upon the non-elect - that destroys your so-called "principle."

Actually it establishes it ! Those whom God elected not to show mercy was according to His Purpose of reprobation and creating them as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction !

Hence, all mankind DESERVE wrath "in Adam"

Yes, and some desrved it in the Serpent !

when he sinned and God could JUSTLY condemn the whole human race "in Adam"

Actually He could not have, since Christ had already been made the Surety of the Elect before the world began, so when Adam sinned, God must be True to the Covenant stipulations and Punish Christ in their stead !

God cannot condemn SINLESSNESS without condemning His own NATURE!

Who said anything about God condemning sinlessness ?