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Sandy Berger: Bush 'Breaking' the Military

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by elijah_lives, Feb 4, 2006.

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  1. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    What's the point Joseph? Obviously you've already succumbed completly to the globalist propaganda machine. There is nothing I could post that would change your closed made up mind. But, I still love ya like a brother and think there is yet hope for you. [​IMG]
     
    #21 poncho, Feb 5, 2006
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Show me the numbers that say our military is overextended and broken from a credible source. Or, perhaps, you can't do it? Now, I am not a mathematics genius, but a quarter of a million out of a possible 2.26 million is hardly broken or overextended.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #22 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 5, 2006
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Just did a little division on my computer's claculator (which I am quite sure is not controlled by the corporate globalist imperialist conspiracy) and I found out that we about 11% of our total military deployed to a warzone. Please explain to me how that makes it broken and overextended.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #23 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 5, 2006
  4. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Okay here's a number off the top of my head. 200,000+ American casualties from Gulf War One not counting any from the coalition. How many years did that all take to come to light or do you deny that also now as some conspiracy theory?

    The facts are, neither you me Murtha or the Bush admistration can accurately count how many casualties there are until years after the battles occur. Besides I never said Murtha was right or wrong.

    I said it's no longer our military and thats just the facts. Believe it or not.
     
    #24 poncho, Feb 5, 2006
  5. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

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    200,000+ American casualties from Gulf War One

    What? Where does THAT figure come from?
     
    #25 elijah_lives, Feb 5, 2006
  6. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    You've never heard of Gulf War illness? They're casualties to you know, as well as their spouses and children that can and should be added, and the number I gave is probably conservative.
     
    #26 poncho, Feb 5, 2006
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I am thinking it came off the top of your head because your mind made it up. Show me where 200,000 Gulf War Vets have died because of a cause directly related to the Gulf War. Also, please show me how having 11% of a 2.26 million military in a war zone is being broken and overextended.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #27 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 5, 2006
  8. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    One needn't die to be a casualty and again Joseph, I never agreed or disagreed with Murtha in any posts in this thread or any other that I can remember or find, if I did then by all means show me where I have agreed with this assessment. I said it isn't really our military. I was replying to "3. We are not an imperialist military." Why are you still asking me to prove an allegation I never made?
     
    #28 poncho, Feb 5, 2006
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    1. By that definition of casualty, I guess John Kerry was a casualty of war... (snicker) [​IMG]

    2. Whether we are an evil imperialist nation or not is off topic and not what we are discussing in this thread.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #29 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 5, 2006
  10. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    I certainly agree that the war in Iraq has strained the military. It is the reason we could not conduct a ground campaign in Iran (if that were necessary; I don't think it is given limited objectives). We certainly could not respond appropriately to a North Korean invasion/attack on S.K.

    I don't know what would be the actual deployment limit to our current force structure but the numbers given include headquarters, logistical and the rear echelon folks, as well as base and training personnel. Certainly if we were approaching our limit, serious look would be given to the "rear echelon component", a look that has in fact been ongoing.
     
    #30 fromtheright, Feb 5, 2006
  11. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

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    If I remember this correctly, standard rotation policy requires 3 times the body of deployed troops, of which there are roughly 8 support troops for every combat soldier. At 138,000 deployed in Iraq, that requires 414,000 in the rotation pool, neglecting support elements out of theater; call it 1/2 million. While we do have other commitments, and I know for a fact that it is straining military families, I don't see that as an excessive strain on military units. Rumsfeld is right -- it has produced a "battle-hardened force", and that is a good thing. One of the reasons that the Germans had such astounding successes early in WWII was because they regularly rotated key personnel through the Spanish Civil War theater, producing a "battle-hardened force." (One of the reasons why they lost the war was because they lost those experienced troops in tangential theaters). Theory often disintegrates in the face of trial, and that is doubly true when it involves warfare -- witness the need for constant evolution of both planning and doctrine as a result of experience in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    We have always been over-exposed in NK, relying primarily on a nuclear deterrent with a human (American) tripwire of a small force. That was probably an error, and wishful thinking. Simply moving our heavy divisions from staging areas abroad to battlefields in NK takes more time than it does for the enemy to overrun the penninsula, as we already learned in the early 1950's. And millions of SK civilians are threatened by NK artillery tubes within range of the capital.

    Our ground options in Iran are similarly limited by our shortage of forces, but as ftr points out, limited objectives argue against ground forces. We don't want to occupy Iran (contrary to the beliefs of some) -- we just need to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

    But I have always argued the need for a draft. We have over-extended our worldwide commitments without a corresponding increase in forces capable of backing those commitments, it helps to spread the cost of freedom throughout all levels of society, and we are at war. All powerful reasons, in my mind, for reinstating the draft. Too many people in our nation have misconceptions about our military, and are getting a free ride.
     
    #31 elijah_lives, Feb 5, 2006
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    11% of a 2.26 million man force is currently in Afganistan and Iraq. Tell me how they are strained and how that causes us not to be able to respond to Iran and North Korea.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #32 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 5, 2006
  13. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    I totally agree with you, just like I wish that somebody who illegally supplied weapons to Iran (a enemy that proudly proclaimed their hatred of America) and then diverted profits to the Contras (in violation of US law) would crawl into the same hole. Yet, even after the voters of Virginia kicked him to the curb, I still see him on FoxNews.

    Oh, don't worry, Joseph: I would dare imagine that this question will be answered soon......

    Regards,
    BiR
     
    #33 Baptist in Richmond, Feb 7, 2006
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    BiR,

    Do you have an answer?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #34 Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 7, 2006
  15. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Murtha is trying to convince us we need to bring back the draft. I wouldn't put anything past those democrats. ;)
     
    #35 poncho, Feb 7, 2006
  16. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    Do I have an answer? I really don't know. However, I am sure that we are about to find out.

    Regards,
    BiR
     
    #36 Baptist in Richmond, Feb 7, 2006
  17. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

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    Until we have a solid answer, it is premature to conclude that Iraq didn't have WMD's, or that Bush lied.
     
    #37 elijah_lives, Feb 7, 2006
  18. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

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    Last post is in wrong forum, my mistake.
     
    #38 elijah_lives, Feb 7, 2006
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