Saved after the Rapture????

Rev. 17:9-17 shows us, that many saints already go through tribulation before they get out of it. Notice, 'Four winds' of Rev. 7:1 is also find refer verses with Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27. It speaks of gathering together same rapture to gathering all saints from four directions: north,south,west, and east in the air.

Our gathering together shall not be occur till after sixth seal broken in Rev. 6:12-15 same with Matt. 24:29-30.

Rev. 7:9-17 do not saying, there will be salvation AFTER rapture.

Also, word, 'rapture' or gathering not find till Revelation chapter 7 also chapter 14 too.

Pretrib inteprets Rev. 4:1 is rapture. But, Apostle John does not saying it. John explains to us of Rev. 4:1-2 in his own experince of vision -'revelation'(supernatural communication through Holy Spirit). John was called up by the angel. Word, 'come hither' finds in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9. These are speak of John was called to come here by angel. These do nothing with rapture or gathering either.

Revelation 7:9-17 proves us, that saints shall go through great tribulation before Christ comes.

2 Thess. 2:1-3 tell us, our gathering together shall NOT come till we must see falling away(apostasy) first, and the revealed of Antichrist first.

Rev. 13:7,10 tell us, Antichrist shall make war(persecute) against saints.

Again, Bible does not teaching us, there shall be another chance for people to be saved right AFTER rapture.

Matt. 24:37-41; Luke 17:34-37; Matt. 25:1-12 tell us, once Christ comes, all unbelievers shall be take away, there shall be no survivor of unbeliever remain left AFTER the judgement day. Same with the lesson of flood. Flood came and took them ALL away, no one were survived after flood, all were killed, expect only 8 people alive and reamin were protect in the Ark. Christ tells us of Matt. 24:37-41, there will be the same comparing of flood & Christ's coming.

Is there a confusion about 'Israel' & Church'? Yes. Because of dispensationalism doctrine. Dispensationalism stress or emphasis, that there is distinction between Israel & Church in God's program in the end times.

For example, Dispensationalism's method of its teaching on Romans chapter 11. They saying of Romans 11:25 'until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in' means when the Gentiles(Church) age ends, it raptures, then God shall start to focus upon Israel for great tribulation.

There is much misunderstanding & misintepreting of Romans 11, what the whole context talking about.

The context of Romans 11 talks about Olive Tree. God does not forsake Jews, but, God removed Jews away from the Olive tree, because of their UNbelief. God now grafted Gentiles unto Olive Tree to join with believing Jews together, both are unity together on the same tree. Olive Tree is the picture of Cross or Calvary.

Romans 11:25-26 tell us, the blindness of Israel(physical) already happened(during Christ's ministry on earth), so, God removed unbelieving Jews off the tree, and grafted Gentiles to join with believing Jews together, SO, ALL Israel shall be saved means, both Jews and Gentiles all shall be full together by the result of Calvary.

We are Spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9 (holy nation).

Calvary already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles together into ONE - Ephesians 2:12-22.

Again second time, I told you, Bible does not teaching there shall be another chance for a person to become saved once AFTER Christ comes with his angels - Matt. 24:37-41; Matt. 25:1-12; Matt. 25:31-33,46; and 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Rjprince: "Revelation is abundantly clear that
many will be saved out of the Tribulation."

Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it!

The whole purpose of the Tribulation Period is
to save a maximum number of JEWS. What we
are talking here is whether a gentile from
the Gentile Age who heard the scripture but
rejected it will be able to get saved
in the Tribulatin Period.
Of course Millions of Jews will be saved shown as
you said. THis says nothing about the Gentiles.

IMHO Revealation 7:9-14 shows the people
from the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

Rev 7:14 as quoted from an unknown source by
Rjprince:

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These people came out of the great tribulation (Period)
by the grace of Christ at the pretribulation
Rapture/resurrection.

 

Church mouse guy: "Ed, how does Titus 2:13
establish the Second Advent as before the tribulation?

Church mouse guy: "Jesus said in Matthew 24
that we would see the Antichrist."

Show me where and how Jesus says
we will see the Antichrist.

Luke 19:41-44 (HCSB):

As He approached and saw the city, He wept over it,
42 saying, "If you knew this day what leads to
peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
43 For the days will come upon you when your
enemies will build an embankment against you,
surround you, and hem you in on every side.
44 They will crush you and your children within
you to the ground, and they will not leave one
stone on another in you, because you did not
recognize the time of your visitation."

 

DeafPosttrib: "Again second time, I told you, Bible does not teaching there shall be another chance for a person to become saved once AFTER Christ comes with his angels"

YOu are exactly correct, if the post-trib a-mill
position is correct. In the post-trib a-mill position
time ends and eternity begins at the
post-trib, one and only, unique, rapture/ressurrection.
Of course there will be no second chances, there is
no time left to have a second chance.

IMHO Revelation 20 has to be scrapped before one
can support the post-trib a-mill position;
a sacrifice i'm not willing to make.

 

Ed, what one single verse in The Holy Bible do you say shows the timing of a pre-tribulation rapture or anything else about a pre-tribulation rapture?

DeafPost-Trib, are you saying that no one can be saved during the millennium or are you saying that there is no millennium?

Ed, you asked where Jesus said that we would see the Antichrist in Matthew 24. Ed, that is so easy--look at verse 15: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...."

 

Church mouse guy: //Ed, you asked where Jesus said that we would see the Antichrist in Matthew 24. Ed, that is so easy--look at verse 15: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...." //

That verse does not directly say "we would
see the Antichrist"
or who will see the Antichrist.

First, phase 1: I believe that your statment;
"we would see the Antichrist in Matthew 24"
is correct. I understand that "we" includes only
elect saints who are Jewish/Israli during
the Tribulation Period. The Antichrist will
commit the AOD = abomination of desolation in
the midst (right in the middle of, from other
scriptures) of the Tribulation Period.

First, phase 2: Matthew 24:15 says
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...."
That verse does not directly say "we would
see the Antichrist"
or who will see the Antichrist.

One must use scripture with scripture
to see what the whole story is. Don't leave
out part of the Scripture though

 

Ed, if you see the abomination of desolation, then you will see the Antichrist. It is as if you see the inaugration, then you see the President who is inaugrated. What do you want--tickets for the front row I hope not!?!!

 

Church Mouse Guy: save your arguments for
someone who disagrees with you.
I said, and i quote:
//I believe that your statment;
"we would see the Antichrist in Matthew 24"
is correct.//

 

Ed, you said, "Show me where and how Jesus says
we will see the Antichrist." I did. Then you wrote, 'That verse does not directly say "we would
see the Antichrist"
or who will see the Antichrist.'

Yes, it does, and, yes, we will see the Antichrist. We will not be raptured and that is the reason that Jesus said that we would see the Antichrist.

We will be kept, as we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and the wrath of God will not be poured out on believers who have the Holy Spirit in their hearts. We will experience a Passover of sorts. We will be kept through all tribulation.

 

You have come to a correct conclusion but
for the wrong reason.
The Gentile Age (Church Age) saints will
be raptured at the beginning of the
Tribulation Period - they will NOT see the
antichrist in action.
The Jewish Israeli elect saints will live
under the antichrist's rule for awile.
It is only the Jewish Israeli elect saints
for whom God has the Tribulation Period
who will see the antichrist.

 

And what is your verse of Scripture that supports your opinion that only Jews will see the Antichrist in view of the undisputable fact that Jesus was talking to Christians in Matthew 24? You may use Darwin if you like.

 

Ed,

Matt. 24:23-26 did show us, talk about Antichrist. Christians & Jews(lost) shall seek to find a real Messiah or Savior somewhere hide in place on earth. Christ points to us, Matt. 24:27 tells us, where the real Messiah/Savior is from ABOVE - heaven, not present upon planet earth, the sign shall annoucment of His coming as lightning will shine from east to west, show the world, that Lord's coming draw near.

Yes, we shall see Antichrist, or false Messiah revealed to us first according to 2 Thess. 2:1-3. False Messiah, himself is Satan. He shall make war(persecute) against Christians(Rev. 13:7,10). Obivously, we shall go through tribulaiton first before Christ comes - Matt. 24:29-31.

Matthew 24 speaks of the only ONE future coming of Christ, no other elase. Christ's coming shall not come till we shall see the signs appear first - Matt. 24:4-14; 15-21; 27-31.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib, please clarify. Do you believe that Jesus will reign for 1000 years after the post-trib rapture? If so, do you say that no one can be saved during that 1000 years?

 

church mouse guy,

While Jesus Christ was on earth 2,000 years ago. He never teaching 1,000 years of the kingdom to his disciples. None find anywhere in the four gospels.

Christ teaches us of Matt. 13:29-30, 37-41 - both unbelievers and believers are growing together over the world to today, unbelievers shall not removed from believers TILL Christ shall come with his angels, that will be the harvest day at the end of this present age. All unbelievers shall be take away, none of them shall be survive beyond the judgement day according to Matt. 24:37-41; Matt. 25:31-46; Luke 17:34-37; and 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

By the way, I do not deny Revelation chapter 20. I can read what Revelation chapter 20 saying. I can read verses saying 'a thousand years' 6 times in this context of chapter 20. Understand, this chapter 20 is a heavily symbol and figrative meanings. Not just only this chapter of Revelation, also, throughout whole book of Revelation is fill of symbol and figurative.

I ask you two questions of Revelation 20, does it saying, saints shall reign with Christ in Jerusalem? Does it saying, saints shall reign with Christ upon 'earth'.

Please do not misunderstanding me. I am not saying that I am deny that we shall reign with Christ on earth in physical and literal will be occur follow at Christ's coming.

I understand of Rev. 20:3-6 speak of saints' present reigning with Christ in the heaven after their death, they are currently reigning with Christ in the heaven since Early Church to now, it have been continue for nearly 2,000 years. Also, saints' reigning with Christ might be continue in the next another 1,000 years or more (beyond 3000 A.D.)

'A thousand years' does not take into literally, it is a figurative meaning.

How about Psa. 50:10? Does God owns ONLY of 999 hills or 1001 hills over the world?

Christ given us the lesson of flood comparing with His coming. Christ tells us, when the flood came, and it took all them away, none of them survived beyond flood, al of them were killed by drowned in the flood. Only 8 remain believers were saved by in the Ark. SO, this shall be likewise at Christ's coming shall be. When Christ shall come again, He shall send all angels to gathering all unbelievers like as 'thief in the night', will cast them all away into everlasting fire - Matt. 13:39-42; Matt. 25:46; Luke 17:34-37; 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

NONE of unbelievers shall be remain left to enter the eternality kingdom with Christ after the judgment day at Christ's coming.

Later I will make post at amillennial theology- more likely tomorrow night.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

tee hee, Darwin I get in trouble
when i use Christian Clergy like John Darby.

YOu still don't understand, there is not
"your verse of Scripture". I am adding
scripture to scripture AND HAVE BEEN FOR TWO
AND ONE-HALF YEARS right here on this Baptist
Board. To properly divide the word you have
to use verses together to make some sense.
I don't have a prooftext for what you ask.
And nobody seems to want to question my
posts that formulate answers to quetions
other people have asked.

Here is a question for you, brother Church
mouse guy, what is Ed's stand on this
question of this topic? Yes? No? Maybe?
Ed don't know?

 

Although DPosttrib is amillennial, I believe in the millennium. I guess that in order to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture one has to assume it beforehand.

Ed, you and I agree that people will be saved after the rapture, and I thank you for that.

Now all that is left is to explain to you how you will be kept during the tribulation. By the way, to really be sure that you are okay, move to Edom or Moab--both out of the reach of the Antichrist.

Daniel 11:41 (KJV) He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

 

Here is what the Holman Dictionary says in part:

Historic premillennialism holds to a literal, future reign of Christ on earth, during which Satan is bound a thousand years and the saints reign with Christ. Many who hold this view, however, allow for symbolism in the use of the number 1,000. While the reign of Christ will be literal, the length of the reign may or may not be exactly 1,000 years. This type of premillennialism does not divide the second coming into two phases. There is a single return between the tribulation and millennium.

 

Hey Church Mouse Guy,

You are right 100% and made good point that I do agree what the bible saying. Because DeafPostTrib should more carefully read it again with KJV Bible.

DeafPostTrib, I do mercy on you because you do not read it carefully it. I suggest you go look at Rev. 20:4 then you answer it to me. what it means clearly. Also, you can prove to me where to be saved during posttrib. or Millilum (1000yr) then you show me the bible verse where the bible verse. Or you did misunderstand from the bible? Or you did got confused from wrong teaching before you did make to missionary? Think twice to read it the bible very very very carefully. God do Mercy on you!!!!!!!!!!!! God do loves you and you ask the Holy Spirit show guide with you for properly!

 

DeafTractMan,

I ask you, can you find anywhere in 65 books of the Bible mentioned 'a thousand years of kingdom'?

Silence.

I was used to believe in premill for a long, long time many years. Till in year 2000 A.D. I find troubles with the Scriptures, these do not support premill doctrine, for example - Matt. 13:29-30, 37-42; Matt. 24:37-41; Matt. 25:31-46; John 6:39,40,44, & 54, and etc..

Premil always stress or emphasis focus on Revelation chapter 20, because of 'a thousand years' saying so.

I am 100% agree with Revelation chapter 20. Many premills accuse toward amills, that amills should tear revelation chapter 20 out of the Bible. They are much misunderstanding what amills actual believe.

You ask me to read Rev. 20:4. Sure.

Rev. 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Does, Rev. 20:4 saying, Christians shall reign with Christ ON planet earth? This speak of spiritual reigning with Christ. Many saints many were already beheaded and persecuted throughout past centuries, are now in the heaven, reigning with Christ since from Early Church to today, and are continuing reigning with Christ in the ehaven. More Christians shall be beheaded in the future such as many people are continuing beheaded in Iraq recently, and will be continue. Also, many Christians were killed for refuse to worship the wicked system('Babylon') throughout past Centuries to today, are now in the heaven with Christ, they are reigning with Him in the heaven.

I want to tell you, I do BELIEVE we shall reign with Christ in physical and literal on earth at His coming is future event.

Later, tonight, I will continue to discuss more about 'a thousand years' from verses. Also, I will discuss at 'Amillennial Theology' at Baptist Theology and Bible Study later tonight.

Rev. 20:4 speaks of currently reigning with Christ in the heaven since from Calvary to today. This is not talk about the future event such as what dispensationalism teaches.

I will discuss on this more later tonight.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Recently, I purchased online a used copy of J. Oliver Buswell's book A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, suggested by Walter Martin in a broadcast years ago.

Here is one sentence from Buswell: "The material found in Revelation, chapter 20 and in Ezekiel, chapters 37, 38 and 39 very definitely predicts a final rebellion of world-wide extent after the millennial period." (II, pages 498-499)

cmg