Hello PK
YOU SAID...
1) Please tell me which came first, your election or God's salvation plan?
Election is part of Gods salvation's plan. Many see the plan as another name for election. From your own words you seem to think this. Maybe not, now that you know your "in Christ" argument giving in Eph 1 is bogus. With no election salvation would not happen.
YOU SAID..
2) I do not disagree that God purchased the church with His own Blood. I have said in the past the people are part of the elect after they are redeemed through salvation and not before.
The elect is just a group idea in not right. This has been shown to you before. Where it is true that the elect can be addressed in the Bible as a group, each one of those people God knows there heart, for salvation is a personal relationship. To see the very nature of God in election, we need only look at David. When David was chosen/elected over his brother, God said to each od his brothers, NO, NO, NO...till he reached David.
1And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.
2And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD.
3And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee.
4And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably?
5And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
6And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD's anointed is before him.
7But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
8Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
9Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
10Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
We see the nature of God in this choice. God does not change and we find this nature on all elections. Remember God rejected Saul as king and accepted David as king, and both of them performed very badly; a good illustration of the fact that God accepts us because
we are his and not because we perform.
Now this choice had to do with being ruler. One may ask does this apply to faith?
Notice this in Job as I ad words to point out key words....
Job 33:23 ¶ If there be a messenger (Christ) with him, an interpreter,(Holy Spirit) one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
Job 33:24 Then he (God the Father) is gracious (grace) unto him (the sinner), and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: (KEY>>>) I (I here is God the Father) have found a ransom
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The ramsom is not something we find, but is what God found in the death of Christ on the cross, which makes us OWNED by Christ.
"Ye are not your own: for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."—1 Corinthians 6:19-20.
Hosea is the best book to read on this subject. Hosea means salvation, and in it we see Gomer bought from the slave market of sin, just as we are. Hosea in love now owned Gomer, not based in a sinless life by Gomer, but based on Hosea's own love. Gomer had no say so in Hosea's action. She could not say Hosea....I do not want you as my lord.
YOU SAID...
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 - I am used to this verse being quoted to prove election and predestination but the word "chosen" here is not a common word for election or predestination. Furthermore, we see in vs10 that unbelievers perish because they "receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". In vs12 we see that "all might be damned who believe not the truth"; while the other group are called "brethern" because of their belief of the truth. Notice the goal of the choosing. It is not of the unsaved (unregenerate) to become believers, but of the "brethern beloved" to the end result... (vs14) "to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ". Notice also, my dear brethern, that the choosing comes after the calling of the Gospel.
Because it is not the "common" word has no bearing on the fact it does have the same meaning. This is but a poor use of one word and not the context at hand. It still says what it says.
YOU SAID...
4) Eph. 1:4-5 = I have already discussed this verse with Jarthur001 but we can do it again. We must first see that this verse deals with the saved because the scripture says "us" and not "some". He has chosen us (we who are believers) 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love'. It is not that some should be saved and some lost because the subject of my soul is never mentioned. The object of this salvation is that sometime in the future (when we are conformed to His image) we will stand, covered by His blood, holy and blameless before Christ. So because of this (vs11) the believer is predestinated to receive an inheritance which has been purchased, obtained, and paid for.
Eph 1.
1) Who did the choosing?
2) When was the choosing done?
If we were to use your meaning as shown above, election is not needed. In other words, if we are saved and then we are chosen, what would be the meaning? These blessings come to all of the believers, and on your understanding of election, we could remove the choice and change not one thing.
"US" are the saints....found in verse one.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Saints..."called out ones"....are the elect and this letter is addressed to "US" the saints.
YOU SAID...
Dr. Morgan, "May God deliver us from taking so great, so stupendous and sublime and far-reaching a vision of the wisdom which transcends our finite theory, in order to formulate a doctrine that God has chosen a few people to be saved and left the rest to be damned. That is an unwarranted deduction."
Who is Dr Morgan? It is clear he does not know his Bible very well.
YOU SAID...
5) Rom. 9:10-13 = I discussed this in my last post. Dispensationally, Jacob was loved and Esau was hated. There is no reference to the individuals as such. Therefore, since God so loved the world, decedents from both may be saved who will.
Not according to the Bible. You need to read Micah. Please look in chapter 1 for the word..."forever" and tell me what you think.
YOU SAID...
6) Rom 9:18 = I didn't read that God told Moses that he had chosen Pharaoh to go to Hell. I read that God did harden his heart AFTER Moses went to him and said, "Let My people go", and Pharaoh said, "Who is God that that I should obey Him?". That when the hardening began.
PK...there is just to much to talk about on this one. You need to reread the story of Pharaoh before you make statements like this.
YOU SAID...
7)Rom 9:19-24 = God does not make men in order to destroy them. God ordains no man to eternal death. He 'will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth'; yet Christ comes to His own, but His own received Him not, yet we see weeping when He says, 'Ye will not come unto Me, that you might have life'. Does not this endurance imply opportunity to repent? If He would have selected the Jews to be saved in Heaven (everyone of them) and rejected every other nation, then the objection would have been sustained but it had a different purpose. The election of the Jewish nation looked to the salvation of the Jews and the Gentiles that received the message of God.
Again...to much to address in one post.
