Saved at birth? Part 2

1) Please tell me which came first, your election or God's salvation plan?

2) I do not disagree that God purchased the church with His own Blood. I have said in the past the people are part of the elect after they are redeemed through salvation and not before.

3) 2 Thess. 2:13 - I am used to this verse being quoted to prove election and predestination but the word "chosen" here is not a common word for election or predestination. Furthermore, we see in vs10 that unbelievers perish because they "receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". In vs12 we see that "all might be damned who believe not the truth"; while the other group are called "brethern" because of their belief of the truth. Notice the goal of the choosing. It is not of the unsaved (unregenerate) to become believers, but of the "brethern beloved" to the end result... (vs14) "to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ". Notice also, my dear brethern, that the choosing comes after the calling of the Gospel.

4) Eph. 1:4-5 = I have already discussed this verse with Jarthur001 but we can do it again. We must first see that this verse deals with the saved because the scripture says "us" and not "some". He has chosen us (we who are believers) 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love'. It is not that some should be saved and some lost because the subject of my soul is never mentioned. The object of this salvation is that sometime in the future (when we are conformed to His image) we will stand, covered by His blood, holy and blameless before Christ. So because of this (vs11) the believer is predestinated to receive an inheritance which has been purchased, obtained, and paid for.

Dr. Morgan, "May God deliver us from taking so great, so stupendous and sublime and far-reaching a vision of the wisdom which transcends our finite theory, in order to formulate a doctrine that God has chosen a few people to be saved and left the rest to be damned. That is an unwarranted deduction."

5) Rom. 9:10-13 = I discussed this in my last post. Dispensationally, Jacob was loved and Esau was hated. There is no reference to the individuals as such. Therefore, since God so loved the world, decedents from both may be saved who will.

6) Rom 9:18 = I didn't read that God told Moses that he had chosen Pharaoh to go to Hell. I read that God did harden his heart AFTER Moses went to him and said, "Let My people go", and Pharaoh said, "Who is God that that I should obey Him?". That when the hardening began.

7)Rom 9:19-24 = God does not make men in order to destroy them. God ordains no man to eternal death. He 'will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth'; yet Christ comes to His own, but His own received Him not, yet we see weeping when He says, 'Ye will not come unto Me, that you might have life'. Does not this endurance imply opportunity to repent? If He would have selected the Jews to be saved in Heaven (everyone of them) and rejected every other nation, then the objection would have been sustained but it had a different purpose. The election of the Jewish nation looked to the salvation of the Jews and the Gentiles that received the message of God.

 

Excellent question. And if they are innocent apart from faith (not what the "T" or Augustinian original sin teaches, btw) why?

Or, if they are saved in the womb because they are the elect, why is faith not necessary when Scripture says it is in order to be saved?

 

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I agree.

 

Yes. I think scripture is clear that we must have faith. I believe our faith comes from God.

 

This Has Been Interesting

This has been an interesting post, with some very good points added. However, I agree that salvation comes through faith.

Pastor Paul

 

Hello PK

YOU SAID...

Election is part of Gods salvation's plan. Many see the plan as another name for election. From your own words you seem to think this. Maybe not, now that you know your "in Christ" argument giving in Eph 1 is bogus. With no election salvation would not happen.

YOU SAID..

The elect is just a group idea in not right. This has been shown to you before. Where it is true that the elect can be addressed in the Bible as a group, each one of those people God knows there heart, for salvation is a personal relationship. To see the very nature of God in election, we need only look at David. When David was chosen/elected over his brother, God said to each od his brothers, NO, NO, NO...till he reached David.

We see the nature of God in this choice. God does not change and we find this nature on all elections. Remember God rejected Saul as king and accepted David as king, and both of them performed very badly; a good illustration of the fact that God accepts us because we are his and not because we perform.

Now this choice had to do with being ruler. One may ask does this apply to faith?

Notice this in Job as I ad words to point out key words....

.
The ramsom is not something we find, but is what God found in the death of Christ on the cross, which makes us OWNED by Christ.

Hosea is the best book to read on this subject. Hosea means salvation, and in it we see Gomer bought from the slave market of sin, just as we are. Hosea in love now owned Gomer, not based in a sinless life by Gomer, but based on Hosea's own love. Gomer had no say so in Hosea's action. She could not say Hosea....I do not want you as my lord.

YOU SAID...

Because it is not the "common" word has no bearing on the fact it does have the same meaning. This is but a poor use of one word and not the context at hand. It still says what it says.

YOU SAID...

Eph 1.

1) Who did the choosing?
2) When was the choosing done?

If we were to use your meaning as shown above, election is not needed. In other words, if we are saved and then we are chosen, what would be the meaning? These blessings come to all of the believers, and on your understanding of election, we could remove the choice and change not one thing.

"US" are the saints....found in verse one.

Saints..."called out ones"....are the elect and this letter is addressed to "US" the saints.

YOU SAID...

Who is Dr Morgan? It is clear he does not know his Bible very well.

YOU SAID...

Not according to the Bible. You need to read Micah. Please look in chapter 1 for the word..."forever" and tell me what you think.

YOU SAID...

PK...there is just to much to talk about on this one. You need to reread the story of Pharaoh before you make statements like this.

YOU SAID...

Again...to much to address in one post.

 

And you are right...as far as how I believe the Bible to teach. Faith is given so that we may believe.

 

Is it really silent? Do you believe there is a special salvation dispensation for infants and the mentally challenged that mankind does not know about?

If Christ's blood is applied to those who are spiritually dead by faith, how can it be silent if you believe mankind is created spiritually dead?

 

...if faith is "given" so that we may believe, who is doing the believing, God or us? If faith is not "given", who is accountable for unbelief, God or us?

 

If you go by the Bible it is ....us and us

We can't make the faith that will rescue us from sin and sins we have done. Only God can create this faith in us. The only faith that counts is that which is 'poured in' to us by the Spirit. Faith does not spring forth from our inmost self, no matter how much spirituality we practice or how many loving deeds we do. It comes from outside of us and then lodges itself inside of us.

Faith is not agreeing with your mind, "Yes, that is true." Many professing Christians believe mentally that the Bible is the Word of God, but this type of faith does not change the way they live. This faith is not a faith that can save.

In fact...The devil has faith in this way....

all believers are given this saving faith to some degree..

 

The Truths in Scripture only apply to adults and those that don't have mental disabilites?

 

I guess you will have to think this out very well, Dale-C.
Before the Bible ever came into possession of a human being, wouldn't you say that literally the whole world died in unbelief and therefore unsaved ?
Before there were missionaries who "won souls to Jesus Christ" wouldn't it be true that the whole world died in unbelief and therefore unsaved ?
Before there was Abraham, wouldn't you say the whole world died in unbelief, and therefore unsaved ?
Before there was Israel, wouldn't you say that the whole world died in unbelief, and therefore unsaved ?
Therefore the entire point of God's sovereign election of His people, and His coming in the form of a slave and dying a painful death on the cross in their behalf, becomes moot and academic unless they believe and have faith.

I reiterate what I said: I believe that the eternal salvation of all of God's elect is NOT TIED up in anyway, shape, or form to whether they believe or not. That is what makes grace pristine and pure. It is 100% of God. This is why none can ever boast: of his work, of his faith, of his determination, of his theology, of his doctrine.

We will all stand head bowed and shamefaced before our Creator and Savior.

Then, where did God put Elijah, Enoc, Moses, and the KNOWN Old Testament Saints BEFORE the actual shedding of blood on the cross at Calvary ?

What were their states ?
In the Soon-to-be-saved-but-unatoned-for-Compartment ?