Saved by Baptism

T, Seems pretty straight forward to me. Wait, I get it, my argument was so good it left you speechless. Truth often leaves people dumbfounded so you are not alone.

Tell me what I can explain better for you. I want you to have a clear understanding of what I am saying

In Christ,
Brian

 

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jn 3, 5.

"...even baptism doth also now save us..." 1 Pt 3, 21.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him." Ro 6,3-8.

It would be good to read all of Romans 6. It is clear there that something marvelous happens during baptism. We are buried with Christ and come up new creatures in the likeness of his resurrection. Because of being buried with him we are freed from sin. It is because we are dead with him, that we shall also live with him. Baptism is a whole lot more than some symbolic act of obedience.

That's why The Twelve were sent out to teach and baptize. Mt 28, 19-20. A share in Christ's own life is put into us when we are baptized. And that is what makes us new creatures. We are made partakers in the divine nature. 2 Pt 1,4.

This way with Jesus Christ is a lot more than empty symbolism. It is vibrantly alive with new life which makes us new creatures. I'm so thankful to have found that new life in baptism.

Pauline

 

tulpje.
I'm not sure that the Lutheran and Catholic views do differ on baptism. Don't you consider it a sacrament? We do. And a sacrament bestows grace, right?

We disagree on other things but I think we teach the same on baptism.

Does anyone know for sure? Sir Ed? Godmetal?

Pauline

 

Pauline- first of all congradulations on 1000 charitable posts. I'm glad to have you here at the BB

Second- Baptist's fully recognize Romans 6 as we do the whole Bible. We find baptism to be symbolic in nature because we find that baptism by the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit imparting saving faith into us) to be the "baptism" of sorts by which we are saved. Our baptism by water (with Word) is a recognition of our salvation, as the Bible exemplifies.

I, at least, do not see baptism as "empty symbolism". I see it as very filled and powerful symbolism. Baptism is not a work of ourselves. It is a work made only possible by the Holy Spirits work in our lives. We can't be baptized in Christian baptism w/o the Holy Spirit- that just doesn't make sense We do play a part in baptism though- we show our obedience to God in baptism. I would agree that in many baptist churches baptism has become "empty symbolism"- instead of it having a deeper meaning of a persons relationship and submission to the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, it becomes "oh your saved now, you should be baptized for the church as a public witness". Blah...

UNP
Adam

UNP
Adam

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
tulpje.
I'm not sure that the Lutheran and Catholic views do differ on baptism. Don't you consider it a sacrament? We do. And a sacrament bestows grace, right?

We disagree on other things but I think we teach the same on baptism.

Does anyone know for sure? Sir Ed? Godmetal?

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pauline, I have a book published by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America on denominational differences and comparisons. (Honoring our Neighbor's Faith" published by Augsburg Fortress Press).

According to that book, yes, Lutheran and Catholic views on baptism are the same. They simple have 5 less sacraments in the RC church.

UNP
Adam

 

Adam,
Thank you for your kind words. I do want always to be charitable in my posts, that I may be a good Catholic-Christian witness before all of you. I pray for Christ to live in and through me so that what I post on here is of Him, and not of myself.

I think you turned it around -- the Catholic Church has 5 more sacraments than the Lutheran. Though I think the Lutherans would claim they have three sacraments: baptism, eucharist and marriage. Catholics would say they actually have only two -- the same two as the other Protestant churches have: baptism and marriage.

We would say the Lutherans do not have a valid eucharist because apostolic succession was broken among them in the 1500s. Also, they gave up all intention to have a valid eucharist when they went to a communion service, they also at the same time gave up all pretense at a valid consecration, and they quit having a proper rite of ordination for holy orders. So we would say they lost a valid eucharist in those four ways. I know the Lutherans on here disagree with that, but I'm only being honest about one of our differences. And, if I am wrong on any of the above points, I will apolgize. So, if I'm wrong, Lutherans, correct me.

Pauline

 

Pauline, we don't consider marriage as a sacrament.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tulpje:
Pauline, with all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about.

We consider a sacrement somthing that mixes God's words with earthy elements. Only two things do that. In Holy Baptisim God mixes his Word with water in Holy Communion he mixes his Word with the wine and the bread. We don't consider marriage a sacrement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mary-

Instead of saying "With all due respect I have no idea what you are talking about" and then procede to assume that Pauline has nothing to offer because you already believe have it right, ask something along the lines of "I wasn't aware that the Catholic Church praticed more than two sacraments, could you please explain these to me, and why you believe they are sacraments." I believe you will find that you will recieve a much more charitable and explainatory response.

Also, if you wish to discuss other doctrines of the RC church, please open a new thread as this one is getting quite long.

Thanks!

UNP
Adam

 

I have had to catch up with alot of these replies and it seems that Pauline is really the only one that keeps trying to pound home John 3: story of Nicodemus and Jesus about water and spirit. Also the 1 Peter 3:21.

I cannot believe you really think that was literal baptism in that Particular story of Nicodemus.

The WATER in that particular chapter is not water baptism.
Look at John 15: 3. and also Ephesians 5:25,27.

In John 15:3. Jesus said you are clean through the WORD. Now look at Ephesians 5:26. That He (Jesus) might sanctify and cleanse it (who is the IT here that Jesus is talking about?) the CHURCH. If your an individual who is saved, that means you are part of the CHURCH, correct? Yes, you are.
What does the verse say? It says how Jesus wants to cleanse it (CHURCH OR YOU, WHO IS PART OF THAT CHURCH) . How is Jesus cleansing or cleaning you? by the word which is WATER not BAPTISM. Also look at Isaiah 1:16.
If you look at Ephesians 5:25, What does it say?
Husbands, love your wives even as CHRIST also loved. who? (THE CHURCH OR YOU) because he gave himself for you. CORRECT? How is he going to sanctify you by Baptism? He ain't. Well then how then? By the washing of water(SYMBOLIC) for the WORD.
John 15:3 you are clean through the WORD which I have spoken unto you.
Well you might say what about the SPIRIT part of JOHN 3:.
That's easy. Jesus said that when the Spirit comes he will teach all things. Jesus takes the water (WORD and confirms with the SPIRIT) which when put together gets the job done. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the WORD. Well you will not have any FAITH without the LORD confirming his WATER (WORD) with the SPIRIT.
Mark 16:20. How did Jesus confirm the WATER (WORD)? With signs. How? The SPIRIT.
This is how you must enter Heaven.
You must beleive in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And you SHOW By SYMBOLISM in your basptism. Then what takes place? The Lord will begin your journey with what I like to call cleaning out the old and puttin' in the new. How does he clean you? by the WORD. Ephesians 5:26. The SPIRIT is the power of God that helps the cleaning and even uses you to Manifest spiritual gifts for others.

You cannot quote 1 Peter 3:21 for this baptism.
Look at v.20
It does not mean they were saved in the water. They were saved in the ARK from the water. (Greek. dia - means through water Strongs #1223)
The ARK is what saved them not water.
You also failed to quote ALL of verse 21.
The like FIGURE - FIGURE - FIGURE- whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.
How is BAPTISM a figure or SYMBOL of saving us?
It was not the water that saved Noah's family, it was the ARK. So baptism in water does not save anybodys soul.
What saves the soul then? Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which BAPTISM is the FIGURE of here in v.21 Romans 6:3-5
What he is saying in 1 Peter 3:21 is that when you are BAPTISED do you know what it SYMBOLIZES for your life (FIGURE). This is why he says FIGURE -FURGURE- FIGURE.
What did NOAH do for 120 years while building the ARK? He preached to the Heathen.
Now it makes no sense that they died by the water and Noah Lived by Water. Look at the Greek( dia, Through Strongs# 1223) Through Water.How? BY the ARK.

 

As officially stated by the Augsburg Confession and the Apology(Explaination) for the Augsburg Confession, depending on definition Lutherans believe there are two possibly three sacraments, Baptism, Communion, and Absolution (the possible third)

Tulpje, to answer an early question I am LCMS.

As far as I know the rcc and lutherans view each others baptisms as valid and are in pretty much full agreement as far as baptism.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:

I'm not sure on Lutheran understanding on this. But the Catholic view is that baptism gives the child sanctifying grace, a share in Christ's own life. The child doesn't have to make a decision on his own in order to receive sanctifying grace. When he reaches the age of reason, he will have to make his own decision for Christ. If he rejects Christ, he will lose sanctifying grace. If he commits to Christ, he will retain sanctifying grace.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With all due respect, it doesn't look to me like infant baptism does anything, according to your post.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:

More is expected of us Catholics.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'll say the same about us Baptists !!!

 

Whosoever, Thank you for a great post. I will disagree with one point however. I think that the water in John 3:6 (I think 6) is birth water because of the next verse which seems to qualify the previous verse (i.e. -flesh is born of flesh and spirit born of spirit). One natural birth to enter the world(flesh) and then a spiritual re-birth to enter the Kingdom of God. I really believe that Jesus was speaking to N. as straight forward and simple as he could here and still N. didn't understand. I base that on the the dialog as a whole that Jesus and N. were having. Way to often you all try to prove your theology with a verse instead just interpreting the verse for what it is.

Pauline, congrats on the 1000 posts!

I think we only disagreed on about 998 of them-- Ha ha

In Christ alone,
Brian

btw, Baptism in the early church was like signing a marriage license, it showed to whom you belonged in a public, official kind of way.

 

T, I am not a Baptist! and your words really make you sound foolish. You are sealed forever yet you believe you can turn your back on God and wind up in Hell, Nice seal you got there, I prefer a seal that really does last forever.

In Christ and truth,
Brian

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You are sealed forever yet you believe you can turn your back on God and wind up in Hell, Nice seal you got there, I prefer a seal that really does last forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because it makes you feel better doesn't make it true. Your declaration about your state of salvation is meaningless.


***I'm sorry, I know this is a different topic, but I couldn't resist***