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Saved by Grace or Works?
- Thread starter thatbrian
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Few people would argue "the lost become convicted to - not take God's name in vain -- and that is how they are saved" --- as we all know
Saved by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead. You decide.
delizzle
Active Member
Saved by grace through faith to do works.
delizzle
Active Member
When I think about it, in some way a work is required in the form of a response. Through grace, we are given a saving faith. But if we have a saving faith, and never respond to it by confessing and accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour, is that person still saved? I tend to lean towards "lordship salvation". Yes, I understand how some would consider "Lordship Salvation" to be works based. But I don't necessarily think it to be so.
Theologically, a response is not considered a work. Any response is subsequent to regeneration.
This is an impossibility (according to the Monergerist ordo salutis). The effectual call of the sinner always results in conversion.
I agree, but there are far too few Evangelicals who would answer as you have, unequivocally. There always seems to be a, "but", in their reply, and that "but" undermines everything that came prior to it.
For some, there is an underlying fear that an honest answer will somehow undermine their presupposition. Considering how many Baptist Board members like to play the "gotcha" game, it is understandable. That said, your OP asks a good question. Depending on how one answers the OP will determine whether they add anything to Gospel, namely, human effort.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Let's take Romans 10 as an example
Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation
Some Calvinists can't help but call that "salvation by works" if those same ideas are posted outside of a direct quote of Romans 10
There is nothing wrong with the text or the Calvinist. The problem lies with your understanding. You fail to understand what transpires prior to these things.
The heart of this debate has always been the "great commission" as we call it IMO.
The Commission is 3 parts to one commission. Anything short of that is blatant disobedience to our Lord's Commands. Jesus wants us to bring our fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, I Cor 13:9, Heb 6:1). This is what the Parable of the sower is all about. Seems so very many self proclaimed "learned big shots" in Christian circles are clueless to the new birth. All they seem to understand are empty words which produce false conversions so they can proclaim another "soul saved" on their resumes. They justify this by claiming that the Gospel is received, acted on and results in vastly differing outcomes for people but all are somehow still regenerated by the same Spirit, regardless of evidence. This idea is foreign to Scripture and God.
Belief
Demonstration
Perfection
That is the Great Commission, friends.
Mark 16:16 makes perfect sense if we are following our Lord's commands. Why would anyone follow the Lord in baptism if they do not believe? Remember God wrote this so of course He meant only true, heart belief. Because only true, convicted by the Spirit, heart belief produces willing demonstration of faith to God.
Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Comparing Scripture to Hebrews 11 and the Gospels would indicate that baptism is God's designated method of demonstrating our faith in Christ in His New Testament and is just as important as the other two parts of the Great Commission. One part or two parts without all three is incomplete and not what God told us to do. This systemic failure to follow His commission is the source of all confusion over "Grace", having sent and continues to send countless millions to hell on a "false gospel" shutter:
No-one identified by God as righteous by belief in Hebrews 11 had dead faith. Every single person demonstrated their faith by obedience. I believe God means that "Talk is Cheap". Don't tell me you believe, SHOW ME you believe.
Example: Had Noah simply told God he believed Him about the coming flood but failed to obey and build the ark, he and his would have drowned with the rest. That would be defined as dead faith.
If Lot had simply told the Lord that he believed Him about Sodom but failed to obey, he would have perished with the rest. This is dead faith.
If Rahab had told the angel that she would hide the messengers but then failed to do so, her faith would not have been counted for righteousness and she would be condemned. That would be defined as dead faith.
Had Paul on the road to Damascus simply told the Lord he would go into the city, but failed to obey and go, then he would still be blind and in hell to this day. This is dead faith.
Do you see the recurring theme when God instructs us on saving faith? By faith Abraham did.....By faith Sara did......by faith Gideon, Barack, Samson all DID (did is short for demonstrated), etc.....In the NT, countless passages indicated NT demonstration of faith via baptism. "They believed and were baptized straight-away" is one of numerous examples.
Remembering Lot's wife will go along way when we struggle with the question of saving faith. She did not miss the overt sexual sins of Sodom per-se; what she missed was her worldly life, friends, things and activities in Sodom. As Christ explained to us in detail that "no man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God. The parable of the two sons being sent into the vineyard is one of many indictments by God against unregenerate faith (easy believism).
And no friends, this does not incorporate "works first" by us as LS describes. The obedience is the result of true faith and demonstrates it. Without this demonstration, there is only seeding and watering.
And without our obedience to Christ to give people the whole truth of the Gospel (ie His Commission) then these easy believer's (still dead in trespasses and sins) blood shall be on our hands at the Great White Throne IMO. And we shall suffer loss at the Judgment Seat over them.
The seeming (but false) contradiction to the vast weight of regeneration-al evidence laid out in Scripture would be the one and only "thief on the cross" scenario the wolves love to deceive with. However, even in this one and only instance in Scripture the thief still demonstrated his belief to the Lord.
The thief publicly rebuked his colleague for un-belief and professed Christ to all present without shame (you know, what Baptism was designed by God to do). Had he lived, he would have no doubt followed the Lord, starting with Baptism. Our Lord knowing the heart and the thief's predicament fully accepted his demonstration of saving faith on the cross.
Every example of salvation in the Word was evidenced by obedience so how could this be missed by so many when it is clearly described on every page of the NT??
The blame lies on those who choose to keep perpetuating either of these lies, their judgment will come from God. The Truth is in His Word and not complicated and this Truth is as far from unregenerate, easy believism as it is from cart before the horse, lordship salvation. As is such with any and all "Christian belief systems" ie, LS, Reformed, dispensationism, etc... none are true to God's Word, but merely the study of men's opinions about God's Word. Put stock in none of these "systems" because none are from God, and all are from men.
The Commission is 3 parts to one commission. Anything short of that is blatant disobedience to our Lord's Commands. Jesus wants us to bring our fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, I Cor 13:9, Heb 6:1). This is what the Parable of the sower is all about. Seems so very many self proclaimed "learned big shots" in Christian circles are clueless to the new birth. All they seem to understand are empty words which produce false conversions so they can proclaim another "soul saved" on their resumes. They justify this by claiming that the Gospel is received, acted on and results in vastly differing outcomes for people but all are somehow still regenerated by the same Spirit, regardless of evidence. This idea is foreign to Scripture and God.
Belief
Demonstration
Perfection
That is the Great Commission, friends.
Mark 16:16 makes perfect sense if we are following our Lord's commands. Why would anyone follow the Lord in baptism if they do not believe? Remember God wrote this so of course He meant only true, heart belief. Because only true, convicted by the Spirit, heart belief produces willing demonstration of faith to God.
Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Comparing Scripture to Hebrews 11 and the Gospels would indicate that baptism is God's designated method of demonstrating our faith in Christ in His New Testament and is just as important as the other two parts of the Great Commission. One part or two parts without all three is incomplete and not what God told us to do. This systemic failure to follow His commission is the source of all confusion over "Grace", having sent and continues to send countless millions to hell on a "false gospel" shutter:
No-one identified by God as righteous by belief in Hebrews 11 had dead faith. Every single person demonstrated their faith by obedience. I believe God means that "Talk is Cheap". Don't tell me you believe, SHOW ME you believe.
Example: Had Noah simply told God he believed Him about the coming flood but failed to obey and build the ark, he and his would have drowned with the rest. That would be defined as dead faith.
If Lot had simply told the Lord that he believed Him about Sodom but failed to obey, he would have perished with the rest. This is dead faith.
If Rahab had told the angel that she would hide the messengers but then failed to do so, her faith would not have been counted for righteousness and she would be condemned. That would be defined as dead faith.
Had Paul on the road to Damascus simply told the Lord he would go into the city, but failed to obey and go, then he would still be blind and in hell to this day. This is dead faith.
Do you see the recurring theme when God instructs us on saving faith? By faith Abraham did.....By faith Sara did......by faith Gideon, Barack, Samson all DID (did is short for demonstrated), etc.....In the NT, countless passages indicated NT demonstration of faith via baptism. "They believed and were baptized straight-away" is one of numerous examples.
Remembering Lot's wife will go along way when we struggle with the question of saving faith. She did not miss the overt sexual sins of Sodom per-se; what she missed was her worldly life, friends, things and activities in Sodom. As Christ explained to us in detail that "no man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God. The parable of the two sons being sent into the vineyard is one of many indictments by God against unregenerate faith (easy believism).
And no friends, this does not incorporate "works first" by us as LS describes. The obedience is the result of true faith and demonstrates it. Without this demonstration, there is only seeding and watering.
And without our obedience to Christ to give people the whole truth of the Gospel (ie His Commission) then these easy believer's (still dead in trespasses and sins) blood shall be on our hands at the Great White Throne IMO. And we shall suffer loss at the Judgment Seat over them.
The seeming (but false) contradiction to the vast weight of regeneration-al evidence laid out in Scripture would be the one and only "thief on the cross" scenario the wolves love to deceive with. However, even in this one and only instance in Scripture the thief still demonstrated his belief to the Lord.
The thief publicly rebuked his colleague for un-belief and professed Christ to all present without shame (you know, what Baptism was designed by God to do). Had he lived, he would have no doubt followed the Lord, starting with Baptism. Our Lord knowing the heart and the thief's predicament fully accepted his demonstration of saving faith on the cross.
Every example of salvation in the Word was evidenced by obedience so how could this be missed by so many when it is clearly described on every page of the NT??
The blame lies on those who choose to keep perpetuating either of these lies, their judgment will come from God. The Truth is in His Word and not complicated and this Truth is as far from unregenerate, easy believism as it is from cart before the horse, lordship salvation. As is such with any and all "Christian belief systems" ie, LS, Reformed, dispensationism, etc... none are true to God's Word, but merely the study of men's opinions about God's Word. Put stock in none of these "systems" because none are from God, and all are from men.
Welcome to BB!
If the thief on the cross had to read and agree with your post before he died, he would be lost forever.
The gospel is simple and brief. It's antithesis is long-winded and complex. Just check the posts from my two SDA friends for examples.
delizzle
Active Member
It does clearly have the "if you do ____ you will then be saved."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly what you sola fide Reformed types have done, you've ADDED to the gospel.
The only passage in the Bible that addresses "justification by faith alone":
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
You talk about 'gotchas', this is what gets me, when it comes right down to it you sola fide Reformed types don't really really believe in justification by faith alone, you just parrot the mantra.
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Cheeky. LOLBeyond a doubt we are saved by works.
But not our own.Titus 3:4-6.
Beyond a doubt we are saved by works.
But not our own.
I agree, and that gets us back to Covenant Theology. . .
