Saved by Grace or Works?

[thatbrian]

PS. So the rest is not a cessation of work, but a cessation of our own works to submit to the work of God in and through us, AND we must labor to enter into that rest. Jesus' yoke is easy and His burden is light

What is mercy?

 

[Yeshua1]

Let's take Romans 10 as an example

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Some Calvinists can't help but call that "salvation by works" if those same ideas are posted outside of a direct quote of Romans 10

Why do you then add to the Gospel the requirements to keep the food laws, and to keep the Sabbath Day?

 

[BobRyan]

delizzle said: ↑
When I think about it, in some way a work is required in the form of a response. Through grace, we are given a saving faith. But if we have a saving faith, and never respond to it by confessing and accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour, is that person still saved? I tend to lean towards "lordship salvation". Yes, I understand how some would consider "Lordship Salvation" to be works based. But I don't necessarily think it to be so.

Let's take Romans 10 as an example
Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Some Calvinists can't help but call that "salvation by works" if those same ideas are posted outside of a direct quote of Romans 10

Why do you then add to the Gospel the requirements to keep the food laws, and to keep the Sabbath Day?

Is it your claim that I wrote the Bible?

Please do inform us as to which parts of the Word of God we are not allowed to believe or post -- in that case.

"Do not take God's name in vain" -- Ex 20:7... do you "allow" that commandment of God??

 

[BobRyan]

I always thought that we are saved by grace to do good works.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Note how often in the NT the term "good works" is used positively -- vs negatively

 

[glad4mercy]

What is mercy?

God opens the eyes, convicts the heart, draws the soul, forgives the sins, imputes righteousness, imparts the Spirit, adopts as sons and daughters, indwells, inhabits, transforms, conforms, preserves, as Christ intercedes, the Spirit intercedes, the blood cleanses us from all sin, and we are changed from glory to glory into the image of Christ until the day when we will be like Him, for we will see Him just as He is.

And IF we have this hope in us, we will purify ourselves just as He is pure and we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 

[glad4mercy]

Good works have NOTHING to do with our JUSTIFICATION, nor with our regeneration, adoption, initial sanctification, etc. We are saved, justified, regenerated, adopted, set apart, etc. by faith ALONE. Good works follow, for Christ died to redeem a holy people, zealous of good works. We don't labor to be saved, we labor BECAUSE we are saved, IF we are really His.

Hebrews 6: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[thatbrian]

God opens the eyes, convicts the heart, draws the soul, forgives the sins, imputes righteousness, imparts the Spirit, adopts as sons and daughters, indwells, inhabits, transforms, conforms, preserves, as Christ intercedes, the Spirit intercedes, the blood cleanses us from all sin, and we are changed from glory to glory into the image of Christ until the day when we will be like Him, for we will see Him just as He is.

And IF we have this hope in us, we will purify ourselves just as He is pure and we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

I think that we may have gotten our wires crossed. I wanted to know how you define mercy.

 

[thatbrian]

Good works have NOTHING to do with our JUSTIFICATION, nor with our regeneration, adoption, initial sanctification, etc.

Would you mind defining "initial salvation"? Is there some other "salvation" in which good works do play a role?

 

[atpollard]

Would you mind defining "initial salvation"? Is there some other "salvation" in which good works do play a role?

He never said anything about ‘initial salvation’.
He said ‘initial sanctification’.

“Salvation” is typically divided into three parts:
1. Justification (by grace through faith, not of yourself)
2. Sanctification (walking in Christ and the good works prepared by God in advance)
3. Glorification (God finally making us perfect).

 

[glad4mercy]

I think that we may have gotten our wires crossed. I wanted to know how you define mercy.

Mercy in this context twofold. First, it means God doesn't give us what we deserve, and secondly it is the desire and act of God pulling us out of the pit, delivering us, healing us, sending His Son to die in our place, Jesus offering Himself for us, forgiving a debt we could not pay, pardoning the condemned, etc out of infinite love

 

[glad4mercy]

He never said anything about ‘initial salvation’.
He said ‘initial sanctification’.

“Salvation” is typically divided into three parts:
1. Justification (by grace through faith, not of yourself)
2. Sanctification (walking in Christ and the good works prepared by God in advance)
3. Glorification (God finally making us perfect).

Thank you, and well said!

 

[thatbrian]

Mercy in this context twofold. First, it means God doesn't give us what we deserve, and secondly it is the desire and act of God pulling us out of the pit, delivering us, healing us, sending His Son to die in our place, Jesus offering Himself for us, forgiving a debt we could not pay, pardoning the condemned, etc out of infinite love

When this debt is forgiven is it permanently forgiven?

 

[BobRyan]

When this debt is forgiven is it permanently forgiven?

Saints in heaven will certainly not be turning to wickedness.

But before then it is possible .. free will being what it is.

In any case better to accept the Bible on that one.



Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[glad4mercy]

When this debt is forgiven is it permanently forgiven?

Yes, but granting forgiveness is not the same as granting indulgences.
The forgiveness of sins past are remembered no more. Permanently forgiven. Sins present and future are forgiven and cleansed conditionally, see 1 John 1:9. Not forgiven to be saved again, but forgiven to restore perfect, unbroken fellowship and fruitfulness. Sins committed after conversion hurts Fellowship and hinders fruit bearing.

Our focus should be loving God and bearing fruit of love. If we do that, the rest falls into place

 

[thatbrian]

Yes, but granting forgiveness is not the same as granting indulgences.
The forgiveness of sins past are remembered no more. Permanently forgiven. Sins present and future are forgiven and cleansed conditionally, see 1 John 1:9. Not forgiven to be saved again, but forgiven to restore perfect, unbroken fellowship and fruitfulness. Sins committed after conversion hurts Fellowship and hinders fruit bearing.

Our focus should be loving God and bearing fruit of love. If we do that, the rest falls into place

Did God know that you would have "future" sins when He elected you?

 

[glad4mercy]

Did God know that you would have "future" sins when He elected you?

Of course. That is why the blood of Jesus CONTINUALLY cleanses me, and why God has provided confession, and why I have an Intercessor in heaven at the Father's right hand, correct?

 

[thatbrian]

Of course. That is why the blood of Jesus CONTINUALLY cleanses me, and why God has provided confession, and why I have an Intercessor in heaven at the Father's right hand, correct?

Would you say that all of your sin was future sin to God?

 

[glad4mercy]

Of course. That is why the blood of Jesus

Would you say that all of your sin was future sin to God.

God is intemporal, we are not. God sees past, present, future simultaneously, but we move and exist in time. Because God knows it, doesn't mean a sin is predetermined. We can say no to sin. Therefore God's foreknowledge of sin is not causative. Point being, God's foreknowledge is exhaustive, and He exists outside of time, but HE STILL ACTS IN TIME

 

[glad4mercy]

That Brian, God's foreknowledge is exhaustive, and He transcends time, but He still ACTS IN TIME. He is intemporal, we are temporal. Our sins are temporal, His knowledge of them is intemporal. God forgives sin in time just as He saves us in time, just as He sent His Son in the fullness of time, though He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

 

[BobRyan]

Did God know that you would have "future" sins when He elected you?

Did God arbitrarily select - elect you?

"Elect" according to His foreknowledge

1 Peter 1
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: