Saved? How can we know?

Howdy Lacy. We are almost neighbors. I live in Oklahoma...lol. I want to point out something to you. You might think about how much personal information you give out on the web. Just because this is a Baptist Board, does not mean that it may be the safest place. There are secular people who lurk here.

I know it is good to be bold. But I want you to think about one thing. There are many unstable people on the net. Maybe it would be best to post personal information in a private message?

It is up to you, and I hope I have not overstepped my bounds. I am just a little concerned for you. Keep up the good work of your ministry.

 

Lacy and Allen;
Have you never had a doubt at all since becoming a Christian??

 

I have no doubt about what Christ can and has done. The only thing I ask is why me? I don't deserve it.

I know the change that has occured in my life, and I experience the Holy Spirit testifying with my Spirit. I do doubt sometimes. Maybe its human nature, or maybe we realize that even in the regenerate state, we fall waaayyyyyy short daily?

 

It comes from the flesh still waiting on its deliverance. How can the flesh testify of knowledge when it has not received it yet?
If you want to testify of knowledge it has to come from that part which has already been delivered from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope in Christ, and that testimony has to be in the Spirit.

 

Amen bro. Bob. My spirit has the testamony of His Spirit. My flesh still doubts sometimes.

 

Lacy, I note you are still waiting!

Don't hold your breath. It may be a while!

Ed

 

I see you still sowing your discord this morning Ed.

Thomas had to see Him face to face before He would believe, when all the others had already believed. Seems to be some doubt there. Seems to me if you doubt that He arose from the grave, then you doubt your salvation.

 

If you read the Bible, it would not be baffling. God cannot lie and what He says shall come to pass. His Word will not return to Him void.

It has nothing to do with thinking highly of oneself. It has to do with how highly one values God's Word and Jesus' sacrifice.

I would not wait one more second to get saved if I was not SURE I was going to Heaven. I thank God that I am saved and that His Word is true.

It would be like slapping Jesus in the face if I doubted God's Word and said I "hoped" I was saved when He says in His Word that we can KNOW for SURE.

Do you think Jesus spilled His blood so we could "hope" it was enough to get us to Heaven or so we could "know"? I don't serve a "hope so" God...

 

I bet Thomas doesn't doubt anymore. Neither do I.

To ascribe to Thomas a doubting spirit and use that to justify our own doubt makes little sense. The disciples had watched him die. Generally when folks die, they stay dead. I don't really see a rebuke in Christ's words to Thomas. I don't think the Disciples could have understood the magnitude of the events surrounding Christ's death burial and resurection at first. The best fiction writer in the world couldn't make that up. We have a much clearer revelation of what was happening than any of them had at the time.

When Thomas fully understood the propitiatory nature of Christ's sacrifice and the finality of "It is finished", he didn't doubt.

What's to doubt? Either his blood was enough or it was not.

Thomas wanted to be sure. Christ showed him the evidence. We can still see that same evidence if we believe the book.

Lacy

 

Truthfully, no.

My question, Brother Bob, (and you know I respect you) Did you believe you were not saved. Doubt is usaully not something a christian suddenly has while sitting in McDonalds mid-bite of a Quarter Pounder (made like a Big Mac ) but in conjunction with something that makes them reflect on why they did something, thought something. I say usaully because sometimes depression and other psycological problems can be a factor at times which is why we are to "examine ourselves to KNOW that we ARE in the faith..." Emotions and thoughts do not change the eternal fact that once a person has placed their faith in Christ Jesus they are and forever more saved.

I don't say a person can't doubt but I challange that person always to know what it is they are doubting. Their salvation or why they did something they know they shouldn't do (or didn't do). As I said there are, the majority of the time, 2 principle issues that could be at work. One is guilt, the other conviction and ONLY by examining yourself in light of the Truth can one KNOW one IS Saved. Peter, Paul and John had no Problem declaring themselves as absolutely saved and being IN Christ, IN the Love of God, in unity with the Father, Sons of the Most High... ext.

 

But you are admitting Thomas did doubt after Jesus arose from the grave.
Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

As you can see in this scripture, it is talking about believeing that Jesus had died for our sins and indeed did raise from the grave and that being the same as our belief today, which it so states.

Thomas even had the opportunity to actually see in the flesh of which you and I do not have.

You said to show you where one of the Apostles had doubted and I did. No, Thomas don't doubt today for sure for he is with the Lord, how could He doubt.

Romans 8:
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

People can make fun of the "hope" all they want but when they do so it is because they do not understand that the flesh does rest in hope and the flesh has not been delivered as of yet and to say you have absolute knowledge in the flesh of being saved is to testify of something you don't have yet.

 

Actually Brother Bob, Thomas was not the last of the doubters. There were still 6 more out fishing (gone back to their old lives because Jesus was dead, they thought) That is until Jesus had to go seek them out on shore of sea they were fishing in.

Remember Brother Bob, they did not believe until AFTER the resurrection but not until Jesus showed them all that was to happen. Therefore they were not saved. No blood was shed for the remission of sins yet and salvation was not yet bestowed because there was no risen Lord yet either. Two things that are manditor to believe in order TO BE saved.

It was from THAT point forward, we never see them turn aside or return to their old lives. Where as before they fled in the face of danger but now they stood bold as lion for gospels sake. They were changed and not the same ol' disciples anymore...they were now the Apostles.

 

I never doubt the Lord and what He did. As I already posted Allan, our flesh is still waiting on that deliverance and to testify in the flesh that you do not have doubts is to testify to something you do not have in the flesh. If we testify that Jesus is the Christ, it has to be in the Spirit and not the flesh.

The creature itself shall be delivered ALSO, from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the Children of God.

Also, you said show you where someone doubted after the resurrection. I just pointed out above that Thomas did doubt and would not believe unless he placed his finger in the nail prints. Also, it was the same belief that is required of us for Jesus said so, by saying blessed art thou Thomas and thou hast seen, but blessed art those who believe who have not seen. (US). This was after the resurrection and the blood had already been shed.

 

No one doubts that. The doubt is the weakness of our flesh, surely you understand that.

In the Spirit, I testify I "Know" I am going to Heaven, unfortunantly I am not in the Spirit all the time.

 

Friends, of all the discussions that have ever gotten off track on the Baptist Board, this one is surely the furthest off track!

This question does not have to do with doubting God's word. It does not have to do with needing evidence of the resurrection. It does not have to do with a lack of faith.

The question is, how can anyone know that they themselves are going to heaven?

 

Allan; why would there be a need to examine ourselve if something did not cause us to feel the need to examine ourselves?

Good point Allan;

 

I personally am baffled by your last two posts. We can know, as many have stated and proven with scripture, because the bible tells us so. I'm not sure what you are after.

lacy

 

I would like to hear your explanation to the following scripture Lacy and Allan and others.

 

The way you can be certain someone is saved to ask yourself do you believe the word of God?" We know the word says," For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Can you believe that statement? It is made three times in the Scriptures. Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21, and Joel 2:32.
If you hear a person call upon the name of the Lord for their salvation and then say they have not saved. You have just called the Lord a liar!! Think about it!! The Lord is the one that had the statement put in the Bible three times not you or me. Let's be believers enough to believe the word of God!!!!! On the matter of who is saved and who is not.

 

amity, I have already posted "based on the testimony of Scripture". I quoted more than one Scripture to this effect. Yet you seem to be saying, "But that's not good enough!" I need to 'experience' more.

Peter wrote, as to the testimony of Scripture, versus his own experience of being with Jesus at the transfiguration, "We have the word of prophecy made more sure.'' That is referring to Scripture's testimony about itself. And he (Peter) was one of the only six who were present - three disciples, Jesus and Moses and Elijah. Nine other Apostles weren't there. Even Abraham (the father of nations), Lot (the only person Scripture specifically identifies as 'Godly'), and Noah and Enoch (the only two men who are said to have "walked with God"), - none of these made this cut!!

The Psalmist wrote:

I gave the emphases to draw attention. You are, no doubt, familiar with the account, not a parable, BTW, of the rich man ad Lazarus, the last passage I quoted. The rich man appealed to the'experience' of a 'resurrection' to warn his five brothers. Abraham said no, that "Moses and the Prophets", a name for Scriptures, were more sure than the experience, and said that they would not hear, even though one rose from the dead. One did rise from the dead! He is Jesus, and most of the world still does not believe this. God has placed our assurance in His own hands, not left it to our wavering faith and feelings and experience. That is the point both lacy and I have tried to make. It is not a "cocky assurance", at all, as you put it. It is a simple child-like faith and trust and assurance in Him.
And we have God's own testimony that he rates His word above His very own name.

I have that certain assurance, as did Paul. Do the rest of you? If you don't, look into the Scriptures and the promises God has made. As long as one attempts to derive this from his or her own 'experiences', one is destined to never have any certain assurance, at all.

Ed