Saved? How can we know?

Peter didn't beleive the testimony of others either nor did the Apostles who went back to their old lifestyles. They were in the same boat as Thomas or is it that Thomas was in the same boat (fishing boat - figuritively) as they were.

Look up the word 'hope', Bob.
It means: to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

From the root meaning:
1) expectation of evil, fear

2) expectation of good, hope

a) in the Christian sense

1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

Our bodies in corruption do yearn like the rest of creation to be released and made incorruptable. But that does not mean in ANY shape or fashion that we can't KNOW we are saved. But saved in a body of corruption. Like Paul stated:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

Look up the word 'hope', Bob.
It means: to wait for salvation with expectations (they expect you to pay your bill) of joy and full confidence



From the root meaning:
1) expectation of evil, fear

2) expectation of good, hope

a) in the Christian sense

1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

No absolute knowledge here in this scripture.



Romans 8:
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it

Now if you will put your knowledge to the inward man where it belongs for that is what is "born again" and your "hope" to the creature (outward man), you will have it right and when you testify to "knowing" it is with the "Spirit"and inward man.

Jhn 20:26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

For eight days Thomas would not believe ALL of the other Apostles, but still doubted that Christ had arose from the dead.

 

Amity, you are absolutely right. The Bible does say that there are going to be people that will end up in Hell. It is as you said a statement of fact. You asked how anybody could know for sure that they were going to Heaven and the simple answer is because the Bible says so. The same Bible that says there will be people who end up in Hell also gives people the way to make sure that they will not end up there. Then the Bible goes a step farther and lets people know that they can have full assurance of that salvation. The whole topic comes down to one simple question that has far reaching impact. Do you believe what the Bible says? Not just about people going to Hell or about Gods judgement, but also about Gods amazing love and mercy. Too many times it seems that people when they teach or preach they tend to focus on one nature of God (judgement, wrath, etc.) or they focus on the opposite side of the fence (love mercy compassion) the truth is that if we want to truly portray God accurately we must present both sides. The same God that hates sin and is righteous and just and one day coming in judgement is the same God that says "come unto me ALL ye who labor and are heavy burdened and I WILL give you rest". Another poster mentioned that we don't have a hope so God, and that is so true. The God of the Bible is a God that not only wants people to know how to be saved but more than that He wants them to then know that they ARE saved. Please do not misunderstand, I am not trying to say that salvation is in accomplished in any way because of what we do, it is based strictly on what HE did. There will also be times when we don't feel saved, but feeling and faith don't always go hand in hand. You mentioned how important faith is and again you could not be more right faith is vital. The key is in knowing where our faith lies, "I KNOW whom I have believed and am persuaded that HE is able.." Alot of times people think of faith as something that is completely unknown and some times that is the case, but faith is more than just trusting something that we don't know it is also saying essentially God said it, that settles it and I have faith in that. To wrap it all up yes we can know for certain that we are saved because the Bible says that we can know. Just like Gods judgement of sin is a promise, so is assurance of salvation.I am praying for you.

 

So the Hope or expectation we have is 'Ify' at best.
God may or may not keep His promise. Is that what you really believe.

When God says "if you will...I will...' That is an absolute. God will do exactly what God said He will do. God is not man that makes a promise and abandons it. That which God promises He WILL keep for God can not lie. That is why we also have at the last verse of the John 20

Which directly correlates to Johns 3rd chapter (and many others)

And countless other that you yourself post in contention with Calvinists many times regarding who is saved and lost. How can a person not call out to God with a repentant heart and then live their life wishing God at their death will not send them to hell? That is absurd in light of the promises which say Whosoever, if any man will partake, Repent and believe... for those who do these, they SHALL BE saved.

SHALL BE...is an absolute statement. Hope means EXPECTING (having expectation) God to do just what God said He would do toward those who have repented and believed.


How is having "joyful CONFIDENT expectation" NOT assurance. Anyone that is confident is assured. As I stated before Peter, Paul, and John all stated with ABSOLUTE certainty they were saved and said we as believers can know this for certain as well.

Concerning the Thomas discussion, your wrong Bob. Thomas was not the only Apostle left to not believe He was the actually the 6th one to believe (I was wrong there were still 5 that had not seen Jesus and believed yet). It does not say ALL the disciples were there before or with Thomas, continue reading the passages...

How did they not know it was Jesus from the first if they knew He was risen and if they ALL had seen Him before and with Thomas. Because Jesus was showing Himself to the disciples at different times for spesific reasons. Here we KNOW the rest of the Apostles where with Peter and two other disciples gone back to the old lives. Why, if they knew Jesus was risen and the their faith established? Because they did not know but were still in unbelief until Jesus showed Himself to these on the sea of Tiberias.

Does the scriptures not say that Jesus is the Hope of our salvation. Hope is not concerning the body but the fulfillment of the promise of God in total measure (though our body is included). Christ IS our Hope or expectation. You can not be antisipating exectatly that which you see for it is already there. but to wait, KNOWING that which you are expecting is assured we are confident in that expectation KNOWING it is completed in the one through whom the expected promise is fulfilled.

Our faith in salvation is in the work of Christ and that is the assuranse we have we ARE now and forever more saved and in fellowship with the Father. No regarding salvation on OUR account but Yes (in all absoluteness) His and His promise that WILL NOT fail even if I could.

 

Or maybe I just have a particular blessing to see how deceitfully wicked my own heart is! For truly if I woke up tomorrow totally confident that I was saved, I would feel just as certain that that confidence itself was a deception. And if our confidence is in God and not self, then we should all reserve just that bit of doubt about our own self-deception.

I don't generally believe that sort of certainty comes from God. The preponderance of the evidence in scripture is that it does not. But likely God deals with us each as individuals, and so may give each what he/she needs to serve Him best.

I am quite content and at peace not "knowing" with certainty, and really I hardly ever think about my own salvation at all ... until this thread started that is.

 

Echoing Tony earlier:

Q: Can we know that we ourselves are saved?
A: Yep. 1 John 5:13.

Right on.

 

You have it backwards. If our confidence was in self and not in God, then we would be plagued with doubts.

My confidence is in God - not myself - therefore I have the assurance that only God can give.

I could not live in uncertainty and I thank my Savior that I don't have to live that way.

 

I never said anything about how I believe except to say that in the Spirit I say I "know" I am saved. If you can say you are saved in the flesh, I would like to know how, when the flesh is not yet changed but dwelleth no good thing.

I simply ask your take on Romans 8 being you "know" as I would like for any to give their veiws on Romans 8. It was not put in there to fill up space and you have not given an answer that fully explains it to me.

I think I know as much as you do, or anyone else, unless you know in the flesh and IMO no one can know in the flesh for the carnal mind is sin to God and cannot please God. If you do know in the flesh then that knowledge will be gone when you die so your knowledge better be deeper than the flesh. I am just trying to get you to be more specific of where your knowledge is and not in corruption.

 

I don't think she is questioning God at all and has made it very plain. It is "self" that she is talking about where the weakness is.

 

Romans 8 is not about doubting in the flesh but the struggle in flesh against the the Spirit.

The flesh doesn't determine what I believe for I am to bring ALL THINGS into the submission of Christ. That includes the lust of the flesh to be placed into obediene and is the very reason Pauls says we are to live our lives as living sacrifices. Look at the last verse. It is Christ that brings assurance to you in the flesh and these things were written so you would believe.

The flesh doesn't doubt or stand assured but it desires and yearns or longs. In other words, it is in the heart where an issue is settled because of the knowledge of the New man or Spirit, that brings the whole being under submission to that belief. We are not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine but stead fast in assurance of that which we have received and been once given unto the saints.

 

Really? Show scripture that says a person can not or should not KNOW they are saved until they stand before Christ.
The Lord Lord have we not done... passage is a direct reference (in context) to their works being what they were depending on being justified through. Remember the surounding passages; Tree that brings forth good fruit (before the Lord Lord), and the one who built their house on the rock (after the Lord Lord)- both are dealing SPECIFICALLY with the issue of salvation.

Your confidence is NOT in feeling saved but in believing what God has said REGARDLESS of what you feel. it is by Faith and not emotion, feeling, nor experiences. These things manifest differently in different people but the Faith is ALWAYS the same; it is in the promise of God toward those who have and will believe.

The heart is desperately wicked who can know IT,there is no question there. And yet scripture states by Gods own counsel that it is with the HEART a man believes and with the mouth confession (profession) is made... (Rom 10: 9,10)

We do not trust our heart to be our guide we trust in whom we have given our decietful heart to (that they may keep it and change it). or IOW - In whom we have believed, and are pursuaded that HE is able to keep all that I have committed to Him against that day.

I do want to deal with this though:

If our confidence is in God and not self then there should be NO DOUBT. Nothing should be in reserve unless you believe you have some part to keeping yourself saved that can disqualify you. That would mean your salvation is not of or from God but set in part to self preservation and not Gods preserving.

However the last part gave me quite a shudder for anyone to think a person who places their confidence in God's promise of salvation being as potentally a self-deception... If a person deos not believe the word of God about the certainty of the work of Christ and the salvation that is GIVEN, then I would ask that person in what do they or have they place their faith regarding the promise of God unto salvation. Either it is all of God or it is not. Without beleif or faith there is NO salvation. We place our faith in the finished work of Christ that IT ALONE saves.

No one here believes a person who 'says' they place their faith in Christ work and lives like a godless heathen is to be equated with a believer, for a believer is one changes to such a desire they seek God more than self. And IF they should seek after self or worldly things, it is our Father that WILL NOT ALLOW us to go our own way. HE will chasten us and scrouge us if necessary to bring us back into that releationship with Himself which was established due to that salvation in which we are secured and therefore assured.

If you do not KNOW you are saved but are content in not knowing - IMO - that is a self-deception as the scriptures state we ARE to know whether or not we ARE in the Faith. I am not saying you are or are not saved but the deception is that we can't know when God has stated over and over - these things were written so you can know.

 

Yes, Bob. But it is our Faith in God that removes that weakness knowing it is not I that has saved me nor any works of righteousness I have done, but in Him alone who saves all who believe, repent, and call on His name - These SHALL BE SAVED.