Saved in childbearing... from what?

[Accountable]

Believe on the Lord and you have a greater chance to be saved... I think these folks do believe that is what the bible says.

I'm having a hard time getting a clear answer.... Am I not coming through clear enough? Is there a better way to rephrase my questions?

Back on the Merry-go-round we go.

 

[James_Newman]

I wonder why nobody has mentioned that in the context we have another instance of the word saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Could this saved not have anything to do with the saved in verse 15? Do we suppose that this is speaking of a physical salvation?

 

[DHK]

The Bible doesn't say she has a much greater chance to be saved, it says she shall be saved.

Do we change the Bible, or do we change our thoughts?

The Bible also says" "Train up a child in the way he should go and he shall not depart from it."

Do we change the Bible or do we change our thoughts every time we see a young man or woman go astray from a Godly family. Are we going to condemn all such families?

 

[James_Newman]

The Bible also says" "Train up a child in the way he should go and he shall not depart from it."

Do we change the Bible or do we change our thoughts every time we see a young man or woman go astray from a Godly family. Are we going to condemn all such families?

I think this one deserves a topic of its own.

 

[Accountable]

The Bible also says" "Train up a child in the way he should go and he shall not depart from it."

Do we change the Bible or do we change our thoughts every time we see a young man or woman go astray from a Godly family. Are we going to condemn all such families?

So I take it that you aren't going to answer the question?

 

[Accountable]

I think this one deserves a topic of its own.

Would be fun to debate! Too many times people need a cop out for this verse because they did not train them up properly.

 

[DHK]

So I take it that you aren't going to answer the question?

I did answer the question, and more than once. You want to catch me on a point of grammar. I have showed you from other Scripture that the same phraseology is used elsewhere but it isn't absolute. It is a general statement. Obviously not every Godly family that has raised their children in the right way have seen them go in the right way even though the verse is dogmatic enough to say: "shall not depart from it." It is a general rule.

 

[James_Newman]

I did answer the question, and more than once. You want to catch me on a point of grammar. I have showed you from other Scripture that the same phraseology is used elsewhere but it isn't absolute. It is a general statement. Obviously not every Godly family that has raised their children in the right way have seen them go in the right way even though the verse is dogmatic enough to say: "shall not depart from it." It is a general rule.

I'm sure Eli thought the same way about his children.

 

[Mr.M]

The passage in Timothy needs to be considered in its context:

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The issue is the woman's deception. Why was she deceived? Because she operated outside her designed role. Instead of listening to the instruction of her husband she listened to and heeded the instruction of Satan in the form of a talking serpent. She left her role.

Here Timothy is talking in context about roles and specifically the woman's role. Timothy addresses her general demeanor and deportment and makes clear her boundaries within marriage and the church. Then he reminds us that she was deceived not Adam. In other words when she stepped outside of her proper role and boundaries is when she fell.

So Timothy uses the most exclusive feminine role to emphasis the utmost urgency and importance of staying within divinely designated roles and boundaries for the sake of our souls and salvation, hence he refers to her childbearing.

What happened when she departed from her listening to her husband and listened to another? She fell.

Using the "childbearing" reference is a way to communicate a lengthy doctrine in one word. "Childbearing" represents in reality all of the teachings of the Bible regarding the function and boundaries of a woman. And it is here that Timothy makes clear is where she must find herself, that being within the divine design and boundaries of being a woman.

And no, this is not to say that ALL women are required to bear children. It is being used analogously for the entire doctrine of women in the Bible. God's plan is for women...to be women and outside of God's plan is where Eve fell. This is what Timothy is communicating.

 

[TCGreek]

The passage in Timothy needs to be considered in its context:



The issue is the woman's deception. Why was she deceived? Because she operated outside her designed role. Instead of listening to the instruction of her husband she listened to and heeded the instruction of Satan in the form of a talking serpent. She left her role.

Here Timothy is talking in context about roles and specifically the woman's role. Timothy addresses her general demeanor and deportment and makes clear her boundaries within marriage and the church. Then he reminds us that she was deceived not Adam. In other words when she stepped outside of her proper role and boundaries is when she fell.

So Timothy uses the most exclusive feminine role to emphasis the utmost urgency and importance of staying within divinely designated roles and boundaries for the sake of our souls and salvation, hence he refers to her childbearing.

What happened when she departed from her listening to her husband and listened to another? She fell.

Using the "childbearing" reference is a way to communicate a lengthy doctrine in one word. "Childbearing" represents in reality all of the teachings of the Bible regarding the function and boundaries of a woman. And it is here that Timothy makes clear is where she must find herself, that being within the divine design and boundaries of being a woman.

And no, this is not to say that ALL women are required to bear children. It is being used analogously for the entire doctrine of women in the Bible. God's plan is for women...to be women and outside of God's plan is where Eve fell. This is what Timothy is communicating.

Now this is a good weigh in on a most difficult portion of Scripture.

 

[James_Newman]

The passage in Timothy needs to be considered in its context:



The issue is the woman's deception. Why was she deceived? Because she operated outside her designed role. Instead of listening to the instruction of her husband she listened to and heeded the instruction of Satan in the form of a talking serpent. She left her role.

Here Timothy is talking in context about roles and specifically the woman's role. Timothy addresses her general demeanor and deportment and makes clear her boundaries within marriage and the church. Then he reminds us that she was deceived not Adam. In other words when she stepped outside of her proper role and boundaries is when she fell.

So Timothy uses the most exclusive feminine role to emphasis the utmost urgency and importance of staying within divinely designated roles and boundaries for the sake of our souls and salvation, hence he refers to her childbearing.

What happened when she departed from her listening to her husband and listened to another? She fell.

Using the "childbearing" reference is a way to communicate a lengthy doctrine in one word. "Childbearing" represents in reality all of the teachings of the Bible regarding the function and boundaries of a woman. And it is here that Timothy makes clear is where she must find herself, that being within the divine design and boundaries of being a woman.

And no, this is not to say that ALL women are required to bear children. It is being used analogously for the entire doctrine of women in the Bible. God's plan is for women...to be women and outside of God's plan is where Eve fell. This is what Timothy is communicating.

Are women who are outside God's plan then not saved? Or in what way are women saved by staying in God's ordained role that He has placed them in?

 

[Accountable]

I'm sure Eli thought the same way about his children.

Judah Probably took some corespondance coarse about child training from from Dr. Eli Spock.

 

[Mr.M]

Are women who are outside God's plan then not saved? Or in what way are women saved by staying in God's ordained role that He has placed them in?

I understand your question and probably a less confusing synonym here is "preserved". The use of the word saved in the King James creates some confusion because most immediate reference is our use of it in the context of believing on Christ as Savior, i.e. saved from judgment of sins. Here it is not referring to a woman being saved from judgment of sins but saved or preserved from the pitfalls of operating outside of God's design, again see the contextual reference and example of Eve.

The first chapter gives the nature of the context even more where Paul writes to Timothy concerning deception and bad doctrine:

3As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

He goes on to talk about some whose faith became shipwrecked. And then comes chapter 2 which is how we are to live with a special emphasis on the role of a woman so that she may be preserved...i.e. not deceived or her faith shipwrecked.

 

[James_Newman]

I understand your question and probably a less confusing synonym here is "preserved". The use of the word saved in the King James creates some confusion because most immediate reference is our use of it in the context of believing on Christ as Savior, i.e. saved from judgment of sins. Here it is not referring to a woman being saved from judgment of sins but saved or preserved from the pitfalls of operating outside of God's design, again see the contextual reference and example of Eve.

The first chapter gives the nature of the context even more where Paul writes to Timothy concerning deception and bad doctrine:



He goes on to talk about some whose faith became shipwrecked. And then comes chapter 2 which is how we are to live with a special emphasis on the role of a woman so that she may be preserved...i.e. not deceived or her faith shipwrecked.

Interesting thought, since most women seem to think that they need to be saved from child-bearing and being under their husbands etc... But what about saved in verse 4, why do we not compare this saved with that saved?

 

[Mr.M]

Interesting thought, since most women seem to think that they need to be saved from child-bearing and being under their husbands etc... But what about saved in verse 4, why do we not compare this saved with that saved?

That is a good and fair question and let's say that someone insists it refers, in the childbearing verse, to saving faith in Christ. My immediate question is, how does child bearing produce faith in Christ? It really makes no sense. There is no such teaching in any other place in the Bible for that matter. So such a view really is incompatible with the teaching of faith in Christ...i.e. being saved.

Secondly this obscure view would require all women, in order to be saved, to have children. OF course we know that is not true.

The use of the two words are different. Verse 4 is about being saved from judgment. But the context of the word in the child bearing passage is being saved or preserved from deception per the immediate context of Eve's deception.

 

[James_Newman]

That is a good and fair question and let's say that someone insists it refers, in the childbearing verse, to saving faith in Christ. My immediate question is, how does child bearing produce faith in Christ? It really makes no sense. There is no such teaching in any other place in the Bible for that matter. So such a view really is incompatible with the teaching of faith in Christ...i.e. being saved.

Secondly this obscure view would require all women, in order to be saved, to have children. OF course we know that is not true.

The use of the two words are different. Verse 4 is about being saved from judgment. But the context of the word in the child bearing passage is being saved or preserved from deception per the immediate context of Eve's deception.

OK, so if I understand you correctly, you would apply the saving in verse 4 to the eternal saving that comes through faith in Christ, but the saving in verse 15 to a temporal salvation primarily because it is in the context of requisite works, and therefore cannot be by grace through faith alone. In essence we are looking at two different things that are called the same thing.

 

[Mr.M]

OK, so if I understand you correctly, you would apply the saving in verse 4 to the eternal saving that comes through faith in Christ, but the saving in verse 15 to a temporal salvation primarily because it is in the context of requisite works, and therefore cannot be by grace through faith alone. In essence we are looking at two different things that are called the same thing.

The first part of your statement is correct. But the second part I am not sure of. The last sentence, "we are looking at two different things that are called the same thing" threw me off. But temporal salvation, if I understand how you are using it, might be a good a very good description.

 

[James_Newman]

By temporal, I mean one or another of these definitions, probably number 3:

1.of or pertaining to time.
2.pertaining to or concerned with the present life or this world; worldly: temporal joys.
3.enduring for a time only; temporary; transitory (opposed to eternal).

Seeing that it is difficult to make a distinction with just a cursory reading, is it not possible that there are other instances of 'saved' in scripture that may not mean precisely what we think of as being eternal salvation through faith alone?

 

[TCGreek]

By temporal, I mean one or another of these definitions, probably number 3:

1.of or pertaining to time.
2.pertaining to or concerned with the present life or this world; worldly: temporal joys.
3.enduring for a time only; temporary; transitory (opposed to eternal).

Seeing that it is difficult to make a distinction with just a cursory reading, is it not possible that there are other instances of 'saved' in scripture that may not mean precisely what we think of as being eternal salvation through faith alone?

Are we then to propose that there many instrumental causes of salvation?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I have to say Mr. M, you give quite a convincing argument here. :thumbs: